Senior Men's LP (starts at 4pm EST)

genki said:

The same goes for Flatt, I believe. How high can she be ranked when she skates the two perfect program at worlds? Maybe 6th or so? Otoh, Mirai has a potential to beat even Mao. She was 4th in Olympic and also beat Mao at world last year already in short program.

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This is true. At least in this case, one could argue that Rachael deserves the spot not only because of her Nationals result, but because she has fared a bit better than Mirai internationally, making the GPF, etc.

But in Ross Miner's case? There's just nothing there besides this Nationals finish... He doesn't have any good results yet and got lucky to beat a struggling Abbott with a clean LP.

We already have a competition where the skaters who performed well overall internationally go head to head, it's called the Grand Prix Finals. It's not that exciting.

bekalc said:

One could point out Evan medaled at 2005 Worlds. Evan had short program struggles early on but he's always someone for the USFSA who overall delivered good results for us. The guy only finished of the world podium at one worlds.

Sure the best skaters sometimes have some shaky/bad skates and the judges know this and take this thing into account. But there's a huge difference between holding up a skater like Evan who normally delivers solid performances and has always delivered good results for you.

And holding up someone like Jeremy who has repeatedly shown that he couldn't handle the pressure of the top international competitions. Jeremy's 5th place finish at Worlds, wasn't exactly because he skated two great programs.

I adore Jeremy's skating, but the USFSA isn't necessarily wrong to be delivering Jeremy a little tough love. It worked with Alissa too. Its always a good idea to tell skaters that you'll back the ones who deliver in competition-period. And we don't care how talented you are, if you don't deliver for us, we will back the ones who do.

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I agree. Rewarding Jeremy's miserable skate with a place would only encourage some skaters to sleepwalk through nationals. Yawn.

And especially in this particularly case: Yeah, do badly at the Olympics, so-so at worlds and so-so during the next GP series. Then bomb at nationals. That's all you need to do to make the world team. If that what U.S. skating is to become - Yawn.

I'm very sorry but Jeremy just proved that he is the same old inconsistent skater who would have cost the U.S. the third spot in 2009 had Evan so much as come in 3rd and who could only place 5th in a watered down 2010 worlds with no Evan, no Plushenko, no Lambiel and no Johnny.

He needed to earn his spot on the world team and he didn't. I'm crushed for him and I truly believe he will be able to really do well internationally some day. Just not this year.

Enidan said:

Oh come on. Look how painful you are to go back and do that kind of calculation.

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I actually think gold12345's post is very interesting, as it gives valuable information to illustrate their point.

Enidan said:

Why your eyes are in front, not the back? So you can look forward, live for present and future. So, moving on please duh...

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That applies nicely to things that are out of anyone's control, but with this kind of mindset, no rule would ever be questioned or revised.

OK, I saw Dornbush's SP, which I said I would need to do before I can decide whether I think Ryan should've won over him. And yes he should have. Dornbush skated a tentative, lackluster and mistake filled SP with iffy landings on every jump. There was none of the spark or performance or even attention to music that Dornbush showed in the FS. The only mark I would've boosted Dornbush in the SP is the transition mark (he had the most elaborate series of moves from Russian splits to back lunges before his solo 3flip, which he fell out of).

In the FS, I agree that Ryan's first quad should be downgraded, and some of his PCS should be even lower, while Dornbush's PCS should be even higher. But even with all that, it still doesn't make up the deficit between them. Score should've been closer, but Ryan still should've won.

ks777 said:

What makes you think Abott will deliver at worlds? To me he is more likely to fall apart at big competitions. If you can't bring it at nationals, you really don't deserve to go to worlds.

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You're RIGHT ks777!

Layfan said:

I agree. Rewarding Jeremy's miserable skate with a place would only encourage some skaters to sleepwalk through nationals. Yawn.

And especially in this particularly case: Yeah, do badly at the Olympics, so-so at worlds and so-so during the next GP series. Then bomb at nationals. That's all you need to do to make the world team. If that what U.S. skating is to become - Yawn.

I'm very sorry but Jeremy just proved that he is the same old inconsistent skater who would have cost the U.S. the third spot in 2009 had Evan so much as come in 3rd and who could only place 5th in a watered down 2010 worlds with no Evan, no Plushenko, no Lambiel and no Johnny.

He needed to earn his spot on the world team and he didn't. I'm crushed for him and I truly believe he will be able to really do well internationally some day. Just not this year.

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Also, it's worth noting that Brandon Mroz, who up to that point was in his first year of seniors and finished well below Jeremy in the GP series ended up beating Jeremy at this competition by finishing 9th. So actually Evan only needed to finish 4th to keep the 3 Olympic spots. So the theory that previous Worlds experience gives extra security for spots is a bit flawed when you consider those things.

ETA: So of course it's a shame that Brandon has not been able to repeat similar success since that year, previous GP serious notwithstanding.

Layfan said:

Rewarding Jeremy's miserable skate with a place would only encourage some skaters to sleepwalk through nationals.

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Jeremy's miserable skate put him just .19 points behind two clean programs by Miner.


And just for the record, I'm OK with Miner going to Worlds, it's just that de difference between the scores is so tiny, it coud have gone either way. It's not like COP is an absolutely objective system, so I can see the point of those who disagree.

Puchi said:

Jeremy's miserable skate put him just .19 points behind two clean programs by Miner.


And just for the record, I'm OK with Miner going to Worlds, it's just that de difference between the scores is so tiny, it coud have gone either way. It's not like COP is an absolutely objective system, so I can see the point of those who disagree.

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Well Miner's SP wasn't perfect (though clean) -- he only did a 3-2 on the combo and he had a negative GOE on one of his spins. Jeremy would have been below him further if it wasn't for a better SP. As Layfan said, it's math.

ETA: Also -- in the end, those bad levels on his spins and footwork actually cost Jeremy. If he had level 3 on all of them (as he usually does!), we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

Mrs. P said:

ETA: Also -- in the end, those bad levels on his spins and footwork actually cost Jeremy. If he had level 3 on all of them (as he usually does!), we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

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No, we would be talking about how grossly overmarked Jeremy was in the SP, since he would have scored a few tenths over Bradley's clean SP with a quad.

bekalc said:

I adore Jeremy's skating, but the USFSA isn't necessarily wrong to be delivering Jeremy a little tough love. It worked with Alissa too. Its always a good idea to tell skaters that you'll back the ones who deliver in competition-period. And we don't care how talented you are, if you don't deliver for us, we will back the ones who do.

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I'm a big fan of Jeremy's skating as well, but I also agree that sending Jeremy to Worlds right now might not be such a good thing for him. I don't even think that it's necessarily a matter of tough love, since I haven't heard of him slacking off on training (at least on purpose) so I don't think it's a Nicole Bobek situation. Jeremy's had a pretty rough year, and in a good year, he's been a headcase at Worlds. I don't think with the boot problems he's had, the possible mental and physical fallout from the missed training, and then a disastrous nationals... well, I just don't think that "gifting" him a trip to Worlds is going to be doing him any favors.

Jeremy and his team have already been working on a training program which is going to get him physically and mentally ready for major international competition. Let him go to 4CCs and work through the less pressured environment and then regroup and refocus for next year. It may be very good for him.

Was reading back over the thread and noticed doris singled out Jason Brown. Squinting at my computer screen during the JGP series , he was my favourite among the assembled talent. I'll be looking for him , for sure...

sidwich said:

Jeremy and his team have already been working on a training program which is going to get him physically and mentally ready for major international competition. Let him go to 4CCs and work through the less pressured environment and then regroup and refocus for next year. It may be very good for him.

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:agree:

I agree with the USFSA's decision of the three chosen to go to worlds, and I think some of the criticism of the younger skaters is unfair.

- No one was "lucky" to skate clean. These are elite athletes who train 6 days a week on and off the ice to deliver their best at Nationals. A great performance should be expected given this level of commitment, and 2 athletes delivered in the LP. While perhaps "unexpected," this was no "luck" at all; if anything, those who made mistakes were "unlucky".

- It is completely fair to expect athletes to peak at Nationals. The skaters know that, aside from a few exceptions over the years, the top ranked skaters at Nationals will go to Worlds. Nationals is a high stakes competition and if skaters crumble under the pressure they should not expect to be gifted anything. Kwan had no problem peaking at Nationals, and was generally able to deliver equally compelling programs at Worlds as well. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that because Abbot's plan was to peak at Worlds, he actually would peak at Worlds. While Abbott's score was frustratingly close to 3rd place, he did finish in 4th and rather than drawing an arbitrary line of how close to 3rd should be close enough for Abbott, the USFSA has chosen to focus strictly on the placement.

- I think it is a mistake to choose a World team based on Grand Prix performances. In essence, these are events to get your programs in front of international judges early in the season to get feedback in order to make necessary adjustments for future competitions. A skater's programs should be better by the end of January than they were in November, and in this regard weighing more heavily performances at Nationals vs those in the GP makes a lot of sense (to me).

I like Abbott very much, and I think he is the best skater in our country. But he bombed today. Other champions have bombed in the past (Kwan in 1997, for example) but in those instances other competitors did not deliver superior performances. Tonight they did, and IMHO they should be rewarded with spots on the World team.

I actually thought Bobek and Nikidinov both should have beaten Kwan in the LP at Nationals in 97. Not sure that would have changed the final overall results though. Kwan would have been put on the team for sure even if she missed the podium and even if the top 3 were Lipinski, Kwiatkowski, and Bobek. However Abbott is not Michelle Kwan of course either.

oleada said:

I think Dornbush, Abbott & Bradley should be the world team. Tough on Miner, yes, but the point difference between him & Jeremy was only .16 points, and I don't think that it should invalidate the entire international fall season. At his worst, Abbott can be top 10 in the world; at his best, it's questionable for Miner. Jeremy's a headcase, but he will no doubt get the PCS.

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Abbot had been 11th at World TWICE. At his worst, he could be out of the final free skate group like Oda last year. You like to lie. Why? The top 3 earned it, and should go to Tokyo.

Kinda random, but just thought I'd share:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnjL71iwmXA&feature=related

Ryan Bradley's first senior Nationals appearance. 10 years ago!

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91QKv8WO31Y

2007 Nationals where he won silver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwuq3icKw2E


Didn't realize this hadn't been posted.
Ryan's free skate.

My 2 cents

siberia82 said:

I agree with you, but in North America, the federations form the World team based on Nationals results 99.9% of the time. That's just the way it is. I really don't like this system, but after watching a number of Canadian and US championships over the years, I've know that I simply have to accept it. :disapp:

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Should we make it more like the selection of the gymnastics team? Let's see, a kid works her entire life, ranks at the top in Nationals and the Trials, and then a small Star Chamber headed by a former adherent of the Soviet system decides who is on the team. I do not care how Russia or Japan does it. This is the United States, and in a sport that is already political ENOUGH, thank you, let's just keep this one thing objective. Top 2 or 3 GO, period.
Mirai completely fell apart at the end of her program-a complete spin omission. That is sad, but the world will continue to spin. Ryan is a bit slow for my taste, but what a super nice guy, you can't help but to fall in love with this dude, and I do not care if he comes in 1st or 16th at Worlds. The quads were ALMOST in my opinion, and at least he went for it. The World team, or Olympic team, should always be those who performed the best on a certain night, and a certain point in time. With the exception of being hit on the knee, I wouldn't even allow injured athletes to be petitioned onto the team.
I think the men, especially, are deep with future talent, and I seriously hope that both Johnny and Evan move on and allow the new crop to move up. Best of luck to them all at Worlds! But even if their World's placements are less than stellar, I think the US skating community will survive.

For historical reasons, has it ever happened that a world champion or someone with many medals, didnt deliver at the next year nationals and they gave him another chance?
and Mathman, these were the worst two quads in fs history? !!

Thanx Doris for arena aroma!