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Thread: Senior Men's LP (starts at 4pm EST)

  1. #556
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    true, if you really just count Olympic 2006 free onward... when he wasn't injured and bowwing out.
    One could point out Evan medaled at 2005 Worlds. Evan had short program struggles early on but he's always someone for the USFSA who overall delivered good results for us. The guy only finished of the world podium at one worlds.

    Sure the best skaters sometimes have some shaky/bad skates and the judges know this and take this thing into account. But there's a huge difference between holding up a skater like Evan who normally delivers solid performances and has always delivered good results for you.

    And holding up someone like Jeremy who has repeatedly shown that he couldn't handle the pressure of the top international competitions. Jeremy's 5th place finish at Worlds, wasn't exactly because he skated two great programs.

    I adore Jeremy's skating, but the USFSA isn't necessarily wrong to be delivering Jeremy a little tough love. It worked with Alissa too. Its always a good idea to tell skaters that you'll back the ones who deliver in competition-period. And we don't care how talented you are, if you don't deliver for us, we will back the ones who do.

  2. #557
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    So So happy for Ryan. His honest reaction to his skate and his scores brought tears to my eyes. The best moment of the championship, bar none.

    That Jeremy fell apart like that is just terrible. I thought they might give him the team, but i guess he gave them no reason to in his past trips to worlds. What a crazy Nationals this is turning out to be. Both Mirai and Jeremy off the world team. What is the saddest is that I won't see that beautiful freeskate again. I think his strategy of peaking at worlds really came back to bite him.. he may peak in march, but not at worlds! Sad really. This is when we need a fourth spot at worlds.

    Dornbush was really good was pretty much the whole second to last group. Miner was more to my liking, they both have such great technique and style on the ice.

  3. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    You cannot compare Evan to Abbott.
    I wasn't... I was trying to say that even someone at Evan's level (capable of winning Worlds/Olys) was in danger of being beaten by lesser skaters with "lucky skates" at Nationals since he didn't do so well there. Leaving Evan home in '09 or '10 would have been ridiculous, but with the way the rules are set up, it was very possible that it could have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I'm sorry but can you really look at Jeremy's performance at the last two Worlds, Olympics and at Cup of Russia (he medaled due to a weak field falling 2ce) and say this is someone who performs consistently well for the USFSA)
    I know Abbott fell twice at CoR, but the good scores/placements he gets are more critical. He was 5th at the last Worlds, 9th at the Olympics with a completely miserable SP, and medals regularly on the GP. He was a true threat for the GP Final this year and could make the final group at Worlds. This is far and away better than Miner's two low-placing GP results.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I think that the only skaters who are worth "holding up" are the ones who are repeated World/Olympic medalists. Those skates you can understand the rationale.
    I don't want anyone to be held up, and nobody will have to be held up if other competitions besides Nationals can actually be considered in World selection.

  4. #559
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    Enidan
    In fact, he might have even had an outside shot at a World medal this year. To me, it is quite obvious which skater has the potential to do better at Worlds. I understand the USFS rules are not set up to care about such things, but I wish they would care.
    I completely agree. Yes, it is true that Abbott is inconsistent, but he is the only one American skater this season who has a potential to deliver world class program which equals to Dai's Chan's, and Kozuka's. Top three of this nationals are just not capable of that, no matter how well they skate at world. It is so stupid to select world team just by one competition. It is rather a luck not the merit at all.

    The same goes for Flatt, I believe. How high can she be ranked when she skates the two perfect program at worlds? Maybe 6th or so? Otoh, Mirai has a potential to beat even Mao. She was 4th in Olympic and also beat Mao at world last year already in short program.

    I really wish that they would come up with different system to choose world team next year.

  5. #560
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genki View Post
    Enidan


    I completely agree. Yes, it is true that Abbott is inconsistent, but he is the only one American skater this season who has a potential to deliver world class program which equals to Dai's Chan's, and Kozuka's. Top three of this nationals are just not capable of that, no matter how well they skate at world. It is so stupid to select world team just by one competition. It is rather a luck not the merit at all.

    The same goes for Flatt, I believe. How high can she be ranked when she skates the two perfect program at worlds? Maybe 6th or so? Otoh, Mirai has a potential to beat even Mao. She was 4th in Olympic and also beat Mao at world last year already in short program.

    I really wish that they would come up with different system to choose world team next year.

    What makes you think Abott will deliver at worlds? To me he is more likely to fall apart at big competitions. If you can't bring it at nationals, you really don't deserve to go to worlds.

  6. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by genki View Post
    The same goes for Flatt, I believe. How high can she be ranked when she skates the two perfect program at worlds? Maybe 6th or so? Otoh, Mirai has a potential to beat even Mao. She was 4th in Olympic and also beat Mao at world last year already in short program.
    This is true. At least in this case, one could argue that Rachael deserves the spot not only because of her Nationals result, but because she has fared a bit better than Mirai internationally, making the GPF, etc.

    But in Ross Miner's case? There's just nothing there besides this Nationals finish... He doesn't have any good results yet and got lucky to beat a struggling Abbott with a clean LP.

  7. #562
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    We already have a competition where the skaters who performed well overall internationally go head to head, it's called the Grand Prix Finals. It's not that exciting.

  8. #563
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    One could point out Evan medaled at 2005 Worlds. Evan had short program struggles early on but he's always someone for the USFSA who overall delivered good results for us. The guy only finished of the world podium at one worlds.

    Sure the best skaters sometimes have some shaky/bad skates and the judges know this and take this thing into account. But there's a huge difference between holding up a skater like Evan who normally delivers solid performances and has always delivered good results for you.

    And holding up someone like Jeremy who has repeatedly shown that he couldn't handle the pressure of the top international competitions. Jeremy's 5th place finish at Worlds, wasn't exactly because he skated two great programs.

    I adore Jeremy's skating, but the USFSA isn't necessarily wrong to be delivering Jeremy a little tough love. It worked with Alissa too. Its always a good idea to tell skaters that you'll back the ones who deliver in competition-period. And we don't care how talented you are, if you don't deliver for us, we will back the ones who do.
    I agree. Rewarding Jeremy's miserable skate with a place would only encourage some skaters to sleepwalk through nationals. Yawn.

    And especially in this particularly case: Yeah, do badly at the Olympics, so-so at worlds and so-so during the next GP series. Then bomb at nationals. That's all you need to do to make the world team. If that what U.S. skating is to become - Yawn.

    I'm very sorry but Jeremy just proved that he is the same old inconsistent skater who would have cost the U.S. the third spot in 2009 had Evan so much as come in 3rd and who could only place 5th in a watered down 2010 worlds with no Evan, no Plushenko, no Lambiel and no Johnny.

    He needed to earn his spot on the world team and he didn't. I'm crushed for him and I truly believe he will be able to really do well internationally some day. Just not this year.
    Last edited by Layfan; 01-31-2011 at 01:49 AM.

  9. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enidan View Post
    Oh come on. Look how painful you are to go back and do that kind of calculation.

    I actually think gold12345's post is very interesting, as it gives valuable information to illustrate their point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enidan View Post
    Why your eyes are in front, not the back? So you can look forward, live for present and future. So, moving on please duh...
    That applies nicely to things that are out of anyone's control, but with this kind of mindset, no rule would ever be questioned or revised.

  10. #565
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    OK, I saw Dornbush's SP, which I said I would need to do before I can decide whether I think Ryan should've won over him. And yes he should have. Dornbush skated a tentative, lackluster and mistake filled SP with iffy landings on every jump. There was none of the spark or performance or even attention to music that Dornbush showed in the FS. The only mark I would've boosted Dornbush in the SP is the transition mark (he had the most elaborate series of moves from Russian splits to back lunges before his solo 3flip, which he fell out of).

    In the FS, I agree that Ryan's first quad should be downgraded, and some of his PCS should be even lower, while Dornbush's PCS should be even higher. But even with all that, it still doesn't make up the deficit between them. Score should've been closer, but Ryan still should've won.

  11. #566
    Tripping on the Podium Enidan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    What makes you think Abott will deliver at worlds? To me he is more likely to fall apart at big competitions. If you can't bring it at nationals, you really don't deserve to go to worlds.
    You're RIGHT ks777!

  12. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    I agree. Rewarding Jeremy's miserable skate with a place would only encourage some skaters to sleepwalk through nationals. Yawn.

    And especially in this particularly case: Yeah, do badly at the Olympics, so-so at worlds and so-so during the next GP series. Then bomb at nationals. That's all you need to do to make the world team. If that what U.S. skating is to become - Yawn.

    I'm very sorry but Jeremy just proved that he is the same old inconsistent skater who would have cost the U.S. the third spot in 2009 had Evan so much as come in 3rd and who could only place 5th in a watered down 2010 worlds with no Evan, no Plushenko, no Lambiel and no Johnny.

    He needed to earn his spot on the world team and he didn't. I'm crushed for him and I truly believe he will be able to really do well internationally some day. Just not this year.
    Also, it's worth noting that Brandon Mroz, who up to that point was in his first year of seniors and finished well below Jeremy in the GP series ended up beating Jeremy at this competition by finishing 9th. So actually Evan only needed to finish 4th to keep the 3 Olympic spots. So the theory that previous Worlds experience gives extra security for spots is a bit flawed when you consider those things.

    ETA: So of course it's a shame that Brandon has not been able to repeat similar success since that year, previous GP serious notwithstanding.

  13. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Rewarding Jeremy's miserable skate with a place would only encourage some skaters to sleepwalk through nationals.
    Jeremy's miserable skate put him just .19 points behind two clean programs by Miner.


    And just for the record, I'm OK with Miner going to Worlds, it's just that de difference between the scores is so tiny, it coud have gone either way. It's not like COP is an absolutely objective system, so I can see the point of those who disagree.

  14. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puchi View Post
    Jeremy's miserable skate put him just .19 points behind two clean programs by Miner.


    And just for the record, I'm OK with Miner going to Worlds, it's just that de difference between the scores is so tiny, it coud have gone either way. It's not like COP is an absolutely objective system, so I can see the point of those who disagree.
    Well Miner's SP wasn't perfect (though clean) -- he only did a 3-2 on the combo and he had a negative GOE on one of his spins. Jeremy would have been below him further if it wasn't for a better SP. As Layfan said, it's math.

    ETA: Also -- in the end, those bad levels on his spins and footwork actually cost Jeremy. If he had level 3 on all of them (as he usually does!), we wouldn't be talking about this right now.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 01-31-2011 at 02:29 AM.

  15. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post

    ETA: Also -- in the end, those bad levels on his spins and footwork actually cost Jeremy. If he had level 3 on all of them (as he usually does!), we wouldn't be talking about this right now.
    No, we would be talking about how grossly overmarked Jeremy was in the SP, since he would have scored a few tenths over Bradley's clean SP with a quad.

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