2011 Four Continents & World Championship Teams | Page 2 | Golden Skate

2011 Four Continents & World Championship Teams

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
So, the world competitors are deciding to go to 4C because the two competitions are in the same hemisphere this time? Normally, it really does look like the B team goes to 4C.

Ehhh....

In 2009, everyone went. But that was the 4CC held in the Olympic venue the season before the Olympics. No brainer.

In 2008, it was fairly split
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Absolutely not, there are definitey many precedents where skaters who didn't compete or failed to medal in the U.S. Championship were sent to Worlds instead, e.g. Belbin/Agosto, Kimmie Meissner

Edit to add: But these past cases were usually pretty overwhelming and perhaps they felt neither case this year reached that level in the past to invoke such precedents.


In 2008 it was only because the 1st and 2nd place finishers (Mirai and Rachael) were too young to go. Otherwise, the U.S. would most certainly have sent all three medalists. 2008 is hardly a good argument for not sending the top three finishers. It was the year the U.S. lost the three spots in the first place.
 

CARA

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Country
United-States
Absolutely not, there are definitey many precedents where skaters who didn't compete or failed to medal in the U.S. Championship were sent to Worlds instead, e.g. Belbin/Agosto, Kimmie Meissner

Edit to add: But these past cases were usually pretty overwhelming and perhaps they felt neither case this year reached that level in the past to invoke such precedents.

I think it would be interesting to know the results of just how well those skaters who were selected to the Worlds without medal in the U.S. Championship actually did in the Worlds. Does anyone know? That way, at least we have some object measure to evaluate if making an exception is a better ides or not.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I think it would be interesting to know the results of just how well those skaters who were selected to the Worlds without medal in the U.S. Championship actually did in the Worlds. Does anyone know? That way, at least we have some object measure to evaluate if making an exception is a better ides or not.

Like I said, it didn't go so well in 2008. I believe Kimmie finished 8th or something.

With B&A it went well - they won silver. But it wasn't a matter of them imploding at nationals and getting sent anyway. They had to miss nationals because of an injury and petitioned on the team.

Neither year really sets a precedent for a skater who falls apart at nationals getting sent anyway. I can't think of any time the the U.S. had done that.

My biggest problem with the argument that the U.S. should do things differently is that, actually, the way the U.S. has done things has served them just fine.

The U.S. ladies don't have three spots because they haven't deserved them. But there is no question for instance that last year Rachael and Mirai were the best to send.

In 2009, it was a different story but it was because of Alissa's controversial win not because the committee randomly decided to send Alissa. The selection process has nothing to do with it.

The one time in recent years that the U.S. had to break with precedent in the U.S. ladies comp - out of necessity - was the time it lost its three spots.
 
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wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Michelle Kwan in 2006 was another case and even by then, Michelle was no longer as dominant internationally as she once were.
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
And Jeremy would have a lot better to case to make (or his fans would, cause he seems fine) if he had had better int'l results. Didn't MK petition her way onto the team? And she had to skate a test skate - was that Olys? (how quickly these things fade in my brain)
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Last 4CC was definitely 2nd tier because of the Olympics. This year I think the location is taken into consideration by the N American skaters going to Worlds as both competitions take place in Asia. The travelling and adjustments required back to back can be physically draining and time consuming. Some skaters prefer to stay home to focus on preparation for Worlds though some may like to have additional international competition before the WC.

Next year both events will take place in N American continent I believe. I wish they would have one on each side of the Globe each year to be fair to competing skaters.
 

sorcerer

Final Flight
Joined
May 1, 2007
If I were USFSA, I would send Dornbush, Miner and Rippon to 4CC and send the highest finisher there to Worlds in Tokyo to accompany Bradley (US Champ) and Abbot (highest US ranker ISU).

Italy did something like that for Kostner IIRC.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Michelle Kwan in 2006 was another case and even by then, Michelle was no longer as dominant internationally as she once were.

Yeah, and that didn't go so well either. Although I think Michelle was not nominated to the world team, only the Olympic team.
 

CARA

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Country
United-States
Like I said, it didn't go so well in 2008. I believe Kimmie finished 8th or something.

I know that I need to know more examples/data, but I'm not necessarily surprised by the above example. Not having to earn the spot "fair & square" does exert subtle psychological pressure to an athlete. It can show up on the result.
Like Jason Dangeon mentioned today, "90% of the result is in-between the 6 inches - between ears."
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Not trying to be funny but if you go back far enough, we can also list Nancy Kerrigan in 1994 as one of those exception cases as well - someone who didn't compete nor medal at the Nationals. And Kerrigan wasn't even a World Medalist in 1993 as she placed only 5th - the exact same ranking that Jeremy Abbott currently holds, which in turned caused the U.S. to have only 2 spots for the Lillehammer Olympics.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I know that I need to know more examples/data, but I'm not necessarily surprised by the above example. Not having to earn the spot "fair & square" does exert subtle psychological pressure to an athlete. It can show up on the result.
Like Jason Dangeon mentioned today, "90% of the result is in-between the 6 inches - between ears."

This is what I've been saying :)

Although in Kimmie's case she had been struggling for a while and worlds were no different.

Although, I think she actually had a decent GP series.
If Mirai and Rachael had been elligible, I bet there would have be a whole lot people saying oh, send Kimmie, Mirai and Rachael have no senior international experience, we'll lose our spots, Kimmie has the best international track record, the U.S. would be so stupid not to send Kimmie, it was an unlucky night for Kimmie, blah blah blah, etc, etc.
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
And her score was lower than Hacker's was at Four Continents. Higher base value, higher TES, lower PCS (For Hacker).

And someone metioned earlier this fall Hacker declined a World's berth offered to her so Meissner could go - that's class
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Not trying to be funny but if you go back far enough, we can also list Nancy Kerrigan in 1994 as one of those exception cases as well - someone who didn't compete nor medal at the Nationals. And Kerrigan wasn't even a World Medalist in 1993 as she placed only 5th - the exact same ranking that Jeremy Abbott currently holds, which in turned caused the U.S. to have only 2 spots for the Lillehammer Olympics.

Again, that was a question of injury. Not a question of Nancy performing badly at nationals. If Tonya and Michelle had outperformed Nancy at nationals, I bet they would have sent Tonya and Michelle. Although I seriously doubt Nancy would have done that badly at nationals. She was so prepared that season.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I don't know how anyone can really compare Michelle/Nancy's case to Jeremy's. MIchelle and Nancy both had extremely strong international results
(Nancy was skating extremely well that season to and clearly fixed her long program issues). Both made their case based on injury, not because they bombed Nationals.

To compare Jeremy to Michelle Kwan and Nancy Kerrigan, to people who had stood on World and Olympic podiums is ridiculous.

The thing is it not like Jeremy can argue that his skate was some kind of fluke. Can he argue that it was his worst long of the season? I'd argue that his skate at Cup of Russia was worse. Jeremy bombing a major competition is hardly a surprising thing, and so why should others have to to step aside for him. Abbott's best finish at worlds was hardly due to great skating on his part. But a huge part was due to the fact that it was a post Olympic year. Others skated poorly (Kozuka Oda were more than capable of beating that skate from Abbott ) Its not like Abbott has done a whole lot to inspire the USFSAS confidence that he's a skater they could rely on to secure the spots.

IF we were talking about a skater like Brian Joubert who had a horrible OLympics, but who has a strong record of making world and European podiums, than I could understand the USFSA putting aside one competition. If we are talking about ASada who is a late season skater, I can understand putting one bad skater. But Abbott is consistently inconsistent. And has a reputation of bombing at the most pressure filled moments.
 
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Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Here's my theory on why even though the USFS has an established process for world team selection with US nationals as a qualifier, they don't publish it or make it clear to the general public, and they put up some supposed committee for team selection:

I know the team selection committee for the Olympics is a really an end run around turning US nationals into an Olympics qualifier (thus putting it and its profits... such as it is... under IOC control). The same isn't true of worlds as far as I know. However, if the USFS outright publishes in detail how nationals is a qualifier for worlds, the IOC could merrily sue the USFS by pointing out that their selection process for worlds and Olympics are identical. And if the USFS admits to using nationals as qualifier for the former then it is also a qualifier for the latter. The USFS sees no reason to risk its money (such as it is) and keeps the process opaque thus frustrating followers of the sport.

I blame the IOC.
 
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