2011 Four Continents & World Championship Teams | Page 5 | Golden Skate

2011 Four Continents & World Championship Teams

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
I would replace Bradley with Abbott, but that selection has not been made so I'll root for the Team as is.
This is the one selection according to the rules of the committee that cannot be changed - Bradley is the reigning National Champion and, while rightfully placed 5th in the LP, won on the strength of a stellar short. Dornbush's SP was rightfully judged 7th best. He beat Bradley by 6 points in the LP, but Bradley was 12 points ahead after the SP. Under FP in 6.0, the results would have been Dornbush, Abbott, Bradley.

If Abbott had just stayed vertical on the 3Lz (even a flip out), it would be a moot point, he would be going to Worlds and Miner would stay home since he lost 3rd by less than the -1 for the fall...
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Mrs. P, I understand that. No one is suggesting that competitions award the medals (aka, the direct prize) based on previous results. And truthfully, I agree with Mathman essentially - there's an elegance to letting all the eligible folks compete against each other for those slots. It gives Nationals more prestige. But if Nationals is in fact the be-all-and-end-all, why bother with 4CC/Worlds/Olympics etc. Why bother with international competition at all if it's essentially a three month denouement? Because it is more. The US Federation by definition should be sending those that best represent it. Is one competition really enough to determine that?

I'd also point out that the "committee" this season would have a fairly easy job. In ladies, pairs and dance, the most successful skaters would be the exact same as at Nationals, virtually corresponding to the rankings . Only men's, with it's randomness provided something different. And ideally, that should be the case - the guys you send out to compete against the world early on (and are successful) should be the best your nation has to offer.

Mrs. P, Virtue/Moir aren't National champions this year, but they are going to Worlds. Do you think that if D/W had to withdraw from Nationals, that spot should go to the Hubbells? Belbin/Agosto were able to skate at Worlds 09 despite missing Nationals. Is that wrong?

You know what? It's perfectly possible that Ross Miner will finish higher than Ryan Bradley and Richard Dornbush at worlds. But he would be the odd man out in favor of Jeremy. First of all, that IS basing a decision on ONE competition - Ross should be out because he barely beat Jeremy for bronze at NATIONALS.

I think evaluating a skater's past can be EXTREMELY subjective. I don't know Ross Miner's past but maybe it's more consistent on the junior level than Jeremy has been internationally. So one committee member could start to make that argument if he happens to like Ross better.

YOU say that only in the men is there a problem. But there are plenty of other posters who are pouting because Mirai didn't get to go to worlds and are trying to argue that she would make a better teammate than Rachael or even Alissa.

If the Committee were to consider their pasts they could go in circles forever. Mirai was fourth in the Olympics and first in the SP at worlds. The international judges like her. But Rachael was 5th in 2008 worlds and this would be her third trip to worlds so she has more experience. Plus, Rachael had a more successful grand prix. Ah, but Rachael bombed at the GPF. Ah, But Mirai didn't even make it to finals. Yeah, but she might have if only so-and-so had not won at this other GP event Mirai wasn't even in so maybe it was just bad luck she didn't make to the final.

etc, etc.

I see too much room for subjectivity and I think the committee should only screw with the placements in extroordinary occassions. Like when Nancy Kerrigan had to petition onto the Olympics because she got whacked in the knee.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Mrs. P, I understand that. No one is suggesting that competitions award the medals (aka, the direct prize) based on previous results. And truthfully, I agree with Mathman essentially - there's an elegance to letting all the eligible folks compete against each other for those slots. It gives Nationals more prestige. But if Nationals is in fact the be-all-and-end-all, why bother with 4CC/Worlds/Olympics etc. Why bother with international competition at all if it's essentially a three month denouement? Because it is more. The US Federation by definition should be sending those that best represent it. Is one competition really enough to determine that?

I'd also point out that the "committee" this season would have a fairly easy job. In ladies, pairs and dance, the most successful skaters would be the exact same as at Nationals, virtually corresponding to the rankings . Only men's, with it's randomness provided something different. And ideally, that should be the case - the guys you send out to compete against the world early on (and are successful) should be the best your nation has to offer.

Mrs. P, Virtue/Moir aren't National champions this year, but they are going to Worlds. Do you think that if D/W had to withdraw from Nationals, that spot should go to the Hubbells? Belbin/Agosto were able to skate at Worlds 09 despite missing Nationals. Is that wrong?

I perhaps came out a little captain obvious. It was kind of late!

I think the issue I have with the argument that the "you should send the best your nation" has to offer is that neither Jeremy nor Adam have made a strong case. Yes, you can argue that both (and Mroz) were alternatives to the GPF. But Jeremy's programs, while absolutely beautiful, did not have that attack I saw in his two programs last year. Adam Rippon did well at SC but was very underwhelming in Skate America.

You can argue that Minor had a lackluster season. Or that Richard Dornbush was in juniors and that Bradley finished 18th at last year's worlds (and all things consider, he did finish 18th while being injured, I would think he would be in much better shape this year).

But I agree with many of the others that you can waste a lot of time trying to compare past results. And I think when you look back, there were very few cases of a favorite bombing in the first place. In general, the favorites usually do win. But that didn't happen tonight and others rose the occasion. Personally, I'd rather reward them for holding up under the pressure.

As for Virtue/Moir, I did point out that federations CAN make exceptions to the rule. I think that was a reasonable one. They didn't bomb a competition. They were injured-- whole different story. In fact, if you look at the recent past (2008 U.S. Nationals nonwithstanding) the exceptions the USFSA do make usually involve injury. I didn't have a problem with Belbin and Agosto either for the same reason V/M was sent.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
You know what? It's perfectly possible that Ross Miner will finish higher than Ryan Bradley and Richard Dornbush at worlds. But he would be the odd man out in favor of Jeremy. First of all, that IS basing a decision on ONE competition - Ross should be out because he barely beat Jeremy for bronze at NATIONALS.

I think evaluating a skater's past can be EXTREMELY subjective. I don't know Ross Miner's past but maybe it's more consistent on the junior level than Jeremy has been internationally. So one committee member could start to make that argument if he happens to like Ross better.

Except Miner competed senior and posted lower scores. Abbott beat him @ NHK by 32 points.

YOU say that only in the men is there a problem. But there are plenty of other posters who are pouting because Mirai didn't get to go to worlds and are trying to argue that she would make a better teammate than Rachael or even Alissa.

Except if we were to base it on international performances, Flatt has two silvers and GPF spot to Nagasu's one. People are pouting because they don't like Flatt.

If the Committee were to consider their pasts they could go in circles forever. Mirai was fourth in the Olympics and first in the SP at worlds. The international judges like her. But Rachael was 5th in 2008 worlds and this would be her third trip to worlds so she has more experience. Plus, Rachael had a more successful grand prix. Ah, but Rachael bombed at the GPF. Ah, But Mirai didn't even make it to finals. Yeah, but she might have if only so-and-so had not won at this other GP event Mirai wasn't even in so maybe it was just bad luck she didn't make to the final.

That's where they should have clearly defined rules to follow.

I see too much room for subjectivity and I think the committee should only screw with the placements in extroordinary occassions. Like when Nancy Kerrigan had to petition onto the Olympics because she got whacked in the knee.

Hey, this choice makes it easier for Canada to maintain three spots, so I'm fine with it.

ETA: Mrs. P, salient point. Neither Rippon nor Abbott have made the ironclad case internationally anyway.
 
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chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I'm sorry if this is random; but I'm beginning to understand why Ashley is first alternate for four continents... Is it because if Gao and Zawadzki were to do 4CC they'd lose their eligibility for Jr Worlds because of the new rules? Zawadzki surely would, because she's done the Sr GP?

I hope Ashley will get to go... It would be sad if here season were to be over..

Eligibility for JW is based ONLY on age, not on what other competitions a skater has done. Ashley is first alternate for 4CC because Gao and Zawadzki are assigned to JW, which starts just a week after 4CC.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Except Miner competed senior and posted lower scores. Abbott beat him @ NHK by 32 points.



Except if we were to base it on international performances, Flatt has two silvers and GPF spot to Nagasu's one. People are pouting because they don't like Flatt.



That's where they should have clearly defined rules to follow.



Hey, this choice makes it easier for Canada to maintain three spots, so I'm fine with it.

ETA: Mrs. P, salient point. Neither Rippon nor Abbott have made the ironclad case internationally anyway.

You don't need to defend Flatt's placement on the world team to me. I'm all for it. I was trying to make a point about comparing records.
Are Flatt's GP medals more impressive than Mirai's 4th place finish at the Olympics? Maybe. Maybe not. I can imagine the committee having endless discussions just like this one. And the decision would come down to whether committe member A likes Rachael or not.
 

KMK0902

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Has it been CONFIRMED anywhere/from anyone of importance that Bradley was asked and declined 4CC?

I would have thought that Bradley would want a competition before worlds since Nationals was his first competition this season. He certainly could use another run-through before worlds.

I don't really care who's sent to worlds. On one hand I would think that Abbott is out for 2014 so why not get the next guys prepared and shown off on the international stage well in advance of the olympics. On the other hand I feel a bit bad for Abbott, but he certainly made his own bed....
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But if Nationals is in fact the be-all-and-end-all, why bother with 4CC/Worlds/Olympics etc. Why bother with international competition at all if it's essentially a three month denouement?

Just to make my position clear, I think it is very important to send the best possible team to Worlds. In fact, that is right up there at number two in the USFSA's list of priorities.

Number one is to fulfill their responsibility to carry out a fair, inclusive, and transparent selection process.
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
I have some questions - does the USFSA consider JW more important then 4CC? I would assume so because spots for next years JW and JGP series are at stake there. Do skaters feel the same? Do you think Agnes and Christina would rather skate at JW or 4CC? Either has a better chance of winning at JW, it would seem, but maybe they'd rather get some face time in Int'l Sr Ranks

Also as long as we're spinning the long hypothetical threads, what if Jeremy had decided after Olys to retire and Evan kept skating, but had Jeremy's results (anyone can have an off season). Would the USFSA have made a different decision? Evan had a really good career, but he wasn't always the most consistent either.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Has it been CONFIRMED anywhere/from anyone of importance that Bradley was asked and declined 4CC?

I would have thought that Bradley would want a competition before worlds since Nationals was his first competition this season. He certainly could use another run-through before worlds.

Bradley is 27 years old and has only recently recovered from a serious injury. It was clear from his S-L-O-W FS performance at Nationals that he hasn't built up much stamina over the few months he's been in training. He needs to work intensively to prepare for Worlds, and a long trip to and from Taiwan with minimal opportunities for practice would effectively cut two weeks out of his training schedule. It makes perfect sense for him to have nixed 4CC.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I have some questions - does the USFSA consider JW more important then 4CC? I would assume so because spots for next years JW and JGP series are at stake there. Do skaters feel the same? Do you think Agnes and Christina would rather skate at JW or 4CC? Either has a better chance of winning at JW, it would seem, but maybe they'd rather get some face time in Int'l Sr Ranks

Winning or medaling at 4CC doesn't offer any particular advantages to the skaters, but medaling at JW does guarantee a spot in the GP next year. In addition, 4CC doesn't have the same prestige as Europeans.

While Agnes and Christina have a shot at medaling at JW, they would likely have no chance to medal at 4CC skating against the Japanese ladies.

All things considered, JW is a better choice for the younger US skaters.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
You don't need to defend Flatt's placement on the world team to me. I'm all for it. I was trying to make a point about comparing records.
Are Flatt's GP medals more impressive than Mirai's 4th place finish at the Olympics? Maybe. Maybe not. I can imagine the committee having endless discussions just like this one. And the decision would come down to whether committe member A likes Rachael or not.

Just to make my position clear, I think it is very important to send the best possible team to Worlds. In fact, that is right up there at number two in the USFSA's list of priorities.

Number one is to fulfill their responsibility to carry out a fair, inclusive, and transparent selection process.

1. Mathman, are you arguing that a committee would make the process unfair, exclusive or not transparent? I know you don't like dictatorial way that Mishin runs the Russian Federation (by all reports), but isn't that an extreme of what could potentially be a fair and balanced process?

2. A well constructed process should, and WOULD take that into consideration, Layfan. Of course, you'll get people concerned about the weight of certain events over the other in selection process that contains multiple events of varying "worth." But we have that same thing now with a single event. Additionally, when you have concerns about judging (as we do here with Flatt over Nagasu - a number of people feel she was unfairly overscored), using multiple events at the very least mitigates that factor, somewhat. That stated, it is what it is. I do think that if the USA drops to one spot they will be forced to re-examine the process, but we'll find out.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
1. Mathman, are you arguing that a committee would make the process unfair, exclusive or not transparent? I know you don't like dictatorial way that Mishin runs the Russian Federation (by all reports), but isn't that an extreme of what could potentially be a fair and balanced process?

Bottom line, if a committee decides, then you go to worlds or stay home according as to whether or not you please the committee.

If this is not the case -- for instance if there were some kind of point system, so many points for winning the Grand Prix Final, etc. -- then again, we need only a calculator, not a committee.

I do think a committee makes the process less transparent. We all saw who won Nationals. But we did not sit in on the committee's deliberations afterward.

I do think a committee decision would make the process more exclusive. The committee would favor the same-old same-old that they favored in the past, and it would be difficult for a skater like Ross Miner to gain attention. (Unless, of course, he had friends in high places or his coach was able effectively to lobby for him.)

Let's have a committee to decide who goes to worlds. I nominate Joesitz, Pangtongfan and me to serve. We all have opinions, well-founded in our own minds, as to who is most deserving and most likely to do us proud in Tokyo. Is this a good plan?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I do think that if the USA drops to one spot they will be forced to re-examine the process,...

I doubt it. The USFSA has been doing it this way for eighty years. U.S. skaters have won a bunch of stuff, and sometime they didn't. I don't think the federation will panic if things don't work out so well this time.

We have to remember that the USFSA has 100,000 dues-paying members. 99.9% of them will never have anything to do with the ISU and have no reason to care whether or not such an organization exists. :cool:
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Bottom line, if a committee decides, then you go to worlds or stay home according as to whether or not you please the committee.

If this is not the case -- for instance if there were some kind of point system, so many points for winning the Grand Prix Final, etc. -- then again, we need only a calculator, not a committee.

I do think a committee makes the process less transparent. We all saw who won Nationals. But we did not sit in on the committee's deliberations afterward.

I do think a committee decision would make the process more exclusive. The committee would favor the same-old same-old that they favored in the past, and it would be difficult for a skater like Ross Miner to gain attention. (Unless, of course, he had friends in high places or his coach was able effectively to lobby for him.)

Let's have a committee to decide who goes to worlds. I nominate Joesitz, Pangtongfan and me to serve. We all have opinions, well-founded in our own minds, as to who is most deserving and most likely to do us proud in Tokyo. Is this a good plan?

I can only imagine these boards and all the grumbling and conspiracy theories and cries of foul that would ensue if a committee started making these types of decisions. Maybe the committee would have picked Rachael and maybe Mirai. Just imagine the outcry on both sides.

(Especially if the committee was Mathman, Pantongfan and Joesitz :p )
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Let's argue about the committee members selection by Mathman's executive decision! Let's form a committee to select the members instead!
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Just to make my position clear, I think it is very important to send the best possible team to Worlds. In fact, that is right up there at number two in the USFSA's list of priorities.

Number one is to fulfill their responsibility to carry out a fair, inclusive, and transparent selection process.

How do you reconcile these two goals? Surely you're not claiming that whoever wins Nats is always and *necessarily* the best team? You've pretty much convinced me on the question of transparent and consistent process, but that means (IMO) letting go of the other goal... unless you advocate fixing the results at Nats?
 

MrScroogeMcDuck

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I can only imagine these boards and all the grumbling and conspiracy theories and cries of foul that would ensue if a committee started making these types of decisions. Maybe the committee would have picked Rachael and maybe Mirai. Just imagine the outcry on both sides.

This is a good point.

What if there wasn't a tradition of sending the top finishers at nationals and the committee still went with Flatt because of her consistency or because they wanted to send Nagasu a message that they aren't going to bail her out if she continues to freak out in the free skate? Both would be legitimate reasons to pick Flatt over Nagasu and yet if it happened you'd hear cries that Zakrajsek used voodoo on the committee to get Flatt a spot.
 
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