2011 Four Continents & World Championship Teams | Page 3 | Golden Skate

2011 Four Continents & World Championship Teams

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
I am in utter disagreement. We have too many self-annointed big shots pontificating from on high. Let the kids skate for it
Then we will have to remain in utter disagreement. Either have a real USFS selection Committee that uses judgment, or abolish it entirely. (BTW, I wouldn't characterize all the competitors at US Nationals as "kids.")


Here's my theory on why even though the USFS has an established process for world team selection with US nationals as a qualifier, they don't publish it or make it clear to the general public, and they put up some supposed committee for team selection:

I know the team selection committee for the Olympics is a really an end run around turning US nationals into an Olympics qualifier (thus putting it and its profits... such as it is... under IOC control). The same isn't true of worlds as far as I know. However, if the USFS outright publishes in detail how nationals is a qualifier for worlds, the IOC could merrily sue the USFS by pointing out that their selection process for worlds and Olympics are identical. And if the USFS admits to using nationals as qualifier for the former then it is also a qualifier for the latter. The USFS sees no reason to risk its money (such as it is) and keeps the process opaque thus frustrating followers of the sport.

I blame the IOC.

Actually it's not just your theory, it is true that the USFS dances around cagily to avoid having US Nationals be the "official" Olympic qualifier, as then the USOC would be able to control and that is something USFS wouldn't want. However, this only applies for Olympic selections, not for ISU championships such as Worlds, Jr. Worlds, 4CC, etc. The IOC directly wouldn't be involved, it would be the national federation which is the USOC (US Olympic Committee). The IOC has many warts and is guilty of many things, but not this one. ;)
 
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Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
The IOC directly wouldn't be involved, it would be the national federation which is the USOC (US Olympic Committee). The IOC has many warts and is guilty of many things, but not this one.

Oh my bad. As bad as the IOC is, I don't mean to hang any undeserved accusations on their warty necks.

Actually it's not just your theory, it is true that the USFS dances around cagily to avoid having US Nationals be the "official" Olympic qualifier, as then the USOC would be able to control and that is something USFS wouldn't want. However, this only applies for Olympic selections, not for ISU championships such as Worlds, Jr. Worlds, 4CC, etc.

I know that the non-Olympic competitions are beyond the USOC's reach regardless. My theory is that the USFS doesn't make clear its guidelines on even non-Olympic team selection to avoid giving the USOC any ammunition in a lawsuit about the Olympics qualifier. I can't tell if you agree or disagree with that part of my theory. Can you clarify?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
On the question of "one lucky/unlucky performance at Nationals" -- I notice that athletes themselves never talk about luck.

In basketball there is an expression, "ball don't lie."

At the NBA level, the attitude of the players is. if I shoot the ball correctly it will go in. If it rims out, that is prima fascia evidence that I did not shoot it correctly.

In skating, if I state badly on a day when my opponent skates well -- then I skated badly and my opponent skated well. I never hear grumblings of "luck" after a skating contest from the actual competitors.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
And English football player (don't remember the name) scored this insane goal at the World Cup (in 1990, I think), and when asked about if it was just luck, he responded: "The harder I train, the luckier I get."
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I know that the non-Olympic competitions are beyond the USOC's reach regardless. My theory is that the USFS doesn't make clear its guidelines on even non-Olympic team selection to avoid giving the USOC any ammunition in a lawsuit about the Olympics qualifier. I can't tell if you agree or disagree with that part of my theory. Can you clarify?

I don't think so. The only change they made in the official rules is that they took out the line "the U.S. champion must be sent to the Olympics." This was indeed something that they came up with when some lawyer belatedly noticed that, hey, this language might give the USOC a chance to monkey with things.

Otherwise, I think the policy is what it has always been. Top placements at nationals go to worlds...except that the USFSA reserves the right to make a different selection under unusaual and unforeseen circumstances.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
On the question of "one lucky/unlucky performance at Nationals" -- I notice that athletes themselves never talk about luck.

In basketball there is an expression, "ball don't lie."

At the NBA level, the attitude of the players is. if I shoot the ball correctly it will go in. If it rims out, that is prima fascia evidence that I did not shoot it correctly.

Your use of other sports to make your case against perfectly good athletes is more fun than constructive.
Mirai, for example will be skating against the US World Team. If she beats the US Ladies at 4CC would you not consider that as mistake in the hometown selection of the World Team?
 
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wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Well the USFA is definitely taking a gamble with the two new up and coming juniors. And Jeremy being Jeremy doesn't inspire a safe bet either, but at least at his worst he can make in top 10. But then again, its not fair to the two skaters who did a great skates and rightfully earn the spots to the world.

The question will be will they be able to produce the same performances again at Tokyo and/or will the international judges give them some slacks are mark them fairly. If you are taking consideration, with the three Japanese trio, PChan, Joubert, Amadio and Verners, beating half of them and placing ahead is a tall order. They have to place 6th and 7th place to keep the three spots and its definitely tight and dorable if they go clean. But they going to need help from above skaters to make some mistakes.

I say the ladies have better chance of earning the three spots back. Apart from Miki, Mao, Kim, Kanako and Kostner, all the ladies are pretty much so-so. At least its a good thing that Cizney is getting the PCS mark that she derserved, which at least give her 5-6 points cushions.
 

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Your use of other sports to make your case against perfectly good athletes is more fun than constructive.
Mirai, for example will be skating against the US World Team. If she beats the US Ladies at 4CC would you not consider that as mistake in the hometown selection of the World Team?

A lot can happen I guess. At least she is on the first alternative list, so if Rachael reinjure herself again(not that i'm wishing), Marai can be on the world team. But rightnow both Rachael and Marai are so so and neither hardly give any edges to each other. Rachael no matters how clean she skates, she will be hammered on PCS, and Marai still have issues with consistency and underroateted jumps.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
A lot can happen I guess. At least she is on the first alternative list, so if Rachael reinjure herself again(not that i'm wishing), Marai can be on the world team. But rightnow both Rachael and Marai are so so and neither hardly give any edges to each other. Rachael no matters how clean she skates, she will be hammered on PCS, and Marai still have issues with consistency and underroateted jumps.
And if Cizny gets injured, it wont happen? This is all so hypothetical. The rest is just an opinion.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Your use of other sports to make your case against perfectly good athletes is more fun than constructive.
Mirai, for example will be skating against the US World Team. If she beats the US Ladies at 4CC would you not consider that as mistake in the hometown selection of the World Team?


4CC is not a criteria right now it it? I mean, the 4CC in the current year, not the last. Maybe it should be but it isn't. Weeks ago, you were arguing that the the GPS was the best test for a competitor's consistency and should be taken into account. Rachael and Alissa were the the only two U.S. ladies to make the final and Alissa won in a very difficult field of ladies. What would justify the U.S. sending Mirai when she had such a sloppy skate at nationals? They can't decide to sent Mirai because she MIGHT do better than Rachael and Alissa at 4CC. If they want to change the rules to have the medalists skate for it again at 4CC, then fine but right now it's not like that.

Over at the Men's FS thread I saw that you argued that Rachael and Mirai would make the best team. I'm stunned that after Alissa won the GPF and proved it was no fluke by skating even better at nationals that anyone can argue she shouldn't go to worlds.
 

sidwich

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Well the USFA is definitely taking a gamble with the two new up and coming juniors. And Jeremy being Jeremy doesn't inspire a safe bet either, but at least at his worst he can make in top 10. But then again, its not fair to the two skaters who did a great skates and rightfully earn the spots to the world.

The question will be will they be able to produce the same performances again at Tokyo and/or will the international judges give them some slacks are mark them fairly. If you are taking consideration, with the three Japanese trio, PChan, Joubert, Amadio and Verners, beating half of them and placing ahead is a tall order. They have to place 6th and 7th place to keep the three spots and its definitely tight and dorable if they go clean. But they going to need help from above skaters to make some mistakes.

I'm not even thinking of Bradley, Dornbush and Miner making the 13 to earn 3 spots. I am actually very concerned that they won't make the 28 to earn 2 spots. Bradley's best World's result so far is 15th, and Dornbush and Miner are gigantic question marks. And Jeremy's 5th at Worlds last year may have been a so-so result for him in a middling field, but Ryan finished 18th.

If Bradley even repeats his best result, one of Dornbush or Miner is going to have to get at least 13th to get the 2 spots for 2012. I'm hoping that Ryan can better that result with a good performance for something around 10th, but a lot is going to be riding on Ryan's quads, so say the least.

I'm actually very happy for Ryan, and I think the team is very deserving, but no question, it's a high-risk group.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I'm not even thinking of Bradley, Dornbush and Miner making the 13 to earn 3 spots. I am actually very concerned that they won't make the 28 to earn 2 spots. Bradley's best World's result so far is 15th, and Dornbush and Miner are gigantic question marks. And Jeremy's 5th at Worlds last year may have been a so-so result for him in a middling field, but Ryan finished 18th.

If Bradley even repeats his best result, one of Dornbush or Miner is going to have to get at least 13th to get the 2 spots for 2012. I'm hoping that Ryan can better that result with a good performance for something around 10th, but a lot is going to be riding on Ryan's quads, so say the least.

I'm actually very happy for Ryan, and I think the team is very deserving, but no question, it's a high-risk group.

It's definitely a risk group. I'm still in disbelief that neither Jeremy or Adam made the team. One of them maybe but the meltdown of both is a shock.

Ryan had a broken foot at worlds last year though. So hopefully this year it won't be THAT bad.

I think the team is deserving too but now that you mention losing two spots - it would be interesting of the U.S. revisits the way it does things if that happens. However, I really don't think they'll do that badly.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I'm not even thinking of Bradley, Dornbush and Miner making the 13 to earn 3 spots. I am actually very concerned that they won't make the 28 to earn 2 spots. Bradley's best World's result so far is 15th, and Dornbush and Miner are gigantic question marks. And Jeremy's 5th at Worlds last year may have been a so-so result for him in a middling field, but Ryan finished 18th.

If Bradley even repeats his best result, one of Dornbush or Miner is going to have to get at least 13th to get the 2 spots for 2012. I'm hoping that Ryan can better that result with a good performance for something around 10th, but a lot is going to be riding on Ryan's quads, so say the least.

I'm actually very happy for Ryan, and I think the team is very deserving, but no question, it's a high-risk group.

I agree.

Edit to add: U.S. actually have three direct entries, not two as I previously thought.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I think the team is deserving too but now that you mention losing two spots - it would be interesting of the U.S. revisits the way it does things if that happens. However, I really don't think they'll do that badly.

Amodio
Berntsson
Brezina
Chan
Contesti
Fernandez
Gachinski
Joubert
Kozuka
Oda
Sawyer
Schlutheiss
Takahashi
van der Perren
Verner

Ice is slippery. I think the USA can maintain two spots, but I wouldn't want to bet on it either.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Amodio
Berntsson
Brezina
Chan
Contesti
Fernandez
Gachinski
Joubert
Kozuka
Oda
Sawyer
Schlutheiss
Takahashi
van der Perren
Verner

Ice is slippery. I think the USA can maintain two spots, but I wouldn't want to bet on it either.

The list can be longer than what you wrote down. The downside of using junior skaters is they may bomb badly but then again, the upside is they can really surprise some people.
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Amodio
Berntsson
Brezina
Chan
Contesti
Fernandez
Gachinski
Joubert
Kozuka
Oda
Sawyer
Schlutheiss
Takahashi
van der Perren
Verner

Ice is slippery. I think the USA can maintain two spots, but I wouldn't want to bet on it either.

From this list I think Dornbush and Miner have a decent shot at beating:

Berntsson
Brezina
Contesti
Fernandez
Gachinski
Schlutheiss

If Bradley cleans up keep skate and his TES high he may be able beat be those plus
Sawyer
Verner


That's based on what I've seen from them this season, esp. recently at Euros

Joubert's a real wild card - who knows what he'll bring.

Not really saying that I think they will beat those I listed, just that with good clean skates, and maybe a bit of help, they could.

Amodio
Chan
Kozuka
Oda
Takahashi

would need to make many mistakes - a la Abbott, to fall below the Americans
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
The men's field is extremely competitive. There's no question it will be a rough road for the Americans.

Also, normally Dornbush and Miner wouldn't be under much pressure at the first worlds, which would be an advantage. But with all these doubts about whether they can keep the spots I wonder if there will be.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
This all goes to show how ridiculous it is that every country is limited to sending such a small number of skaters to Worlds/Olympics. There isn't any other sport where a country is limited to sending only 3 people and might even only get to send 2 (or 1!!!), depending on results from the previous season!

Very interesting and insightful. Like a spy novel - there always is one more level of institutional skullduggery!

LMAO!
 
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MrScroogeMcDuck

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
If Bradley nails his jumps, he'll do well. The base values for the executed elements in his SP and FS were 39.40 and 78.64 respectively. Not bad at all. And while his step sequences will not get called as high levels (though still might get slightly positive GOE from the judges, especially in the SP) and his spins will not be well received (to put it politely), he has the potential for some very nice GOE on the jumps. It all comes down to whether he skates clean and does it with a little flair. If he does, his guaranteed low marks for SS and T won't drop him down as much as some are suggesting. You would think based on some of these comments that two great skates from Bradley wouldn't even get him in the top 10. :laugh:
 
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