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Thread: 2011 Four Continents & World Championship Teams

  1. #76
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    Mrs. P, I understand that. No one is suggesting that competitions award the medals (aka, the direct prize) based on previous results. And truthfully, I agree with Mathman essentially - there's an elegance to letting all the eligible folks compete against each other for those slots. It gives Nationals more prestige. But if Nationals is in fact the be-all-and-end-all, why bother with 4CC/Worlds/Olympics etc. Why bother with international competition at all if it's essentially a three month denouement? Because it is more. The US Federation by definition should be sending those that best represent it. Is one competition really enough to determine that?

    I'd also point out that the "committee" this season would have a fairly easy job. In ladies, pairs and dance, the most successful skaters would be the exact same as at Nationals, virtually corresponding to the rankings . Only men's, with it's randomness provided something different. And ideally, that should be the case - the guys you send out to compete against the world early on (and are successful) should be the best your nation has to offer.

    Mrs. P, Virtue/Moir aren't National champions this year, but they are going to Worlds. Do you think that if D/W had to withdraw from Nationals, that spot should go to the Hubbells? Belbin/Agosto were able to skate at Worlds 09 despite missing Nationals. Is that wrong?

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmethekick View Post
    I don't think anyone wants to take away what was earned or worship the committee, but what is the point of the USFSA pretending to have this big "meeting" where they decide who's going to go to the WC, if there just going to send the top 3 every time? Dornbush and Minor were very good, but I think it would be a good idea to consider sending them, along with Abbott, to the 4CC. It would at least give us some idea of how these guys would stack up internationally. I'm concerned that if we send them to Worlds now, they'll just get eaten alive. Then, next year, when these junior skaters have developed their artistry, improved their skill set, and actually have a legitimate chance of not only performing well but being scored well for their performance, one or two of them won't even be able to go because we won't have the spots for them.
    It's ok, MM is very hard pressed on the one comp tells all about the skaters. He is one of the leading adversaries of sending in the strongest team to Worlds unless it shows up in the Nats. Has concern over the Committee's honesty, but not the Tech Callers.

    As much as I admire Bradley, I do not believe international judges will appreciate his humor.
    The smaller comps through the season did not show Miner as being top notch but he gave a very impressive Nats performance of determination which is what I look for as part of the strongest team. Likewise, with all his successes throughout the season, Dorbush should lead the Team.

    I would replace Bradley with Abbott, but that selection has not been made so I'll root for the Team as is.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 02-01-2011 at 10:04 AM.

  3. #78
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    As much as I admire Bradley, I do not believe international judges will appreciate his humor.
    I think it all depends on how he skates (as I think MM has said). If he hits the quads and 3As AND is cute, no problem. They've liked Contesti, Preaubert and Murakami. But he'll have to hit the jumps. I'm fairly hopeful about Ryan even though I don't think he should have won Nationals. He has high-point programs and the crowd will be on his side. After a year out of competition, Nats was his warmup and Worlds will be his peak - let's hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Likewise, with all his successes throughout the season, Dorbush should lead the Team.
    Yes. Make way for the next generation. But he can do just fine from the #2 spot. I'm hoping for a *** moment on the part of the Worlds judges for Richard! [/QUOTE]

    ETA: Hmm, I just got auto-edited for indecency. That was a 3 letter acronym starting with W.

  4. #79
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    ^^^
    Maybe I have been too hard on Bradley, but then again, I have seen him in International Comps before and his humor just doesn't go over as well. If he hits the quad toe and combo, so will Oda, Chan, Joubert and many iffys like Verner. It will be expected of Bradley to hit his because the humor won't make up for it. I also do not see the stroking in his skating, particularly the Mozart number. The aforementioned boys all have lots of better flow over the ice than Ryan.

    You and me both are pulling for Richard. I believe the International judges will make a note of him for next season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    ^^^
    Maybe I have been too hard on Bradley, but then again, I have seen him in International Comps before and his humor just doesn't go over as well. If he hits the quad toe and combo, so will Oda, Chan, Joubert and many iffys like Verner. It will be expected of Bradley to hit his because the humor won't make up for it. I also do not see the stroking in his skating, particularly the Mozart number. The aforementioned boys all have lots of better flow over the ice than Ryan.
    Oh, but that was before he was US Champion. Now they'll know he's famous for his humor and they'll love him. But only if he hits the jumps. I agree, he won't get the PCS scores that he did here.

    Don't you think it's better for Richard mentally not to go in as US champ? That would be some insane pressure. Hopefully he has just the right amount now - he's going to Worlds and he's got to be a little mad that he's not going in as No. 1 because the sentimental favorite was overscored.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I would replace Bradley with Abbott, but that selection has not been made so I'll root for the Team as is.
    This is the one selection according to the rules of the committee that cannot be changed - Bradley is the reigning National Champion and, while rightfully placed 5th in the LP, won on the strength of a stellar short. Dornbush's SP was rightfully judged 7th best. He beat Bradley by 6 points in the LP, but Bradley was 12 points ahead after the SP. Under FP in 6.0, the results would have been Dornbush, Abbott, Bradley.

    If Abbott had just stayed vertical on the 3Lz (even a flip out), it would be a moot point, he would be going to Worlds and Miner would stay home since he lost 3rd by less than the -1 for the fall...

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Mrs. P, I understand that. No one is suggesting that competitions award the medals (aka, the direct prize) based on previous results. And truthfully, I agree with Mathman essentially - there's an elegance to letting all the eligible folks compete against each other for those slots. It gives Nationals more prestige. But if Nationals is in fact the be-all-and-end-all, why bother with 4CC/Worlds/Olympics etc. Why bother with international competition at all if it's essentially a three month denouement? Because it is more. The US Federation by definition should be sending those that best represent it. Is one competition really enough to determine that?

    I'd also point out that the "committee" this season would have a fairly easy job. In ladies, pairs and dance, the most successful skaters would be the exact same as at Nationals, virtually corresponding to the rankings . Only men's, with it's randomness provided something different. And ideally, that should be the case - the guys you send out to compete against the world early on (and are successful) should be the best your nation has to offer.

    Mrs. P, Virtue/Moir aren't National champions this year, but they are going to Worlds. Do you think that if D/W had to withdraw from Nationals, that spot should go to the Hubbells? Belbin/Agosto were able to skate at Worlds 09 despite missing Nationals. Is that wrong?
    You know what? It's perfectly possible that Ross Miner will finish higher than Ryan Bradley and Richard Dornbush at worlds. But he would be the odd man out in favor of Jeremy. First of all, that IS basing a decision on ONE competition - Ross should be out because he barely beat Jeremy for bronze at NATIONALS.

    I think evaluating a skater's past can be EXTREMELY subjective. I don't know Ross Miner's past but maybe it's more consistent on the junior level than Jeremy has been internationally. So one committee member could start to make that argument if he happens to like Ross better.

    YOU say that only in the men is there a problem. But there are plenty of other posters who are pouting because Mirai didn't get to go to worlds and are trying to argue that she would make a better teammate than Rachael or even Alissa.

    If the Committee were to consider their pasts they could go in circles forever. Mirai was fourth in the Olympics and first in the SP at worlds. The international judges like her. But Rachael was 5th in 2008 worlds and this would be her third trip to worlds so she has more experience. Plus, Rachael had a more successful grand prix. Ah, but Rachael bombed at the GPF. Ah, But Mirai didn't even make it to finals. Yeah, but she might have if only so-and-so had not won at this other GP event Mirai wasn't even in so maybe it was just bad luck she didn't make to the final.

    etc, etc.

    I see too much room for subjectivity and I think the committee should only screw with the placements in extroordinary occassions. Like when Nancy Kerrigan had to petition onto the Olympics because she got whacked in the knee.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Oh, but that was before he was US Champion. Now they'll know he's famous for his humor and they'll love him.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Mrs. P, I understand that. No one is suggesting that competitions award the medals (aka, the direct prize) based on previous results. And truthfully, I agree with Mathman essentially - there's an elegance to letting all the eligible folks compete against each other for those slots. It gives Nationals more prestige. But if Nationals is in fact the be-all-and-end-all, why bother with 4CC/Worlds/Olympics etc. Why bother with international competition at all if it's essentially a three month denouement? Because it is more. The US Federation by definition should be sending those that best represent it. Is one competition really enough to determine that?

    I'd also point out that the "committee" this season would have a fairly easy job. In ladies, pairs and dance, the most successful skaters would be the exact same as at Nationals, virtually corresponding to the rankings . Only men's, with it's randomness provided something different. And ideally, that should be the case - the guys you send out to compete against the world early on (and are successful) should be the best your nation has to offer.

    Mrs. P, Virtue/Moir aren't National champions this year, but they are going to Worlds. Do you think that if D/W had to withdraw from Nationals, that spot should go to the Hubbells? Belbin/Agosto were able to skate at Worlds 09 despite missing Nationals. Is that wrong?
    I perhaps came out a little captain obvious. It was kind of late!

    I think the issue I have with the argument that the "you should send the best your nation" has to offer is that neither Jeremy nor Adam have made a strong case. Yes, you can argue that both (and Mroz) were alternatives to the GPF. But Jeremy's programs, while absolutely beautiful, did not have that attack I saw in his two programs last year. Adam Rippon did well at SC but was very underwhelming in Skate America.

    You can argue that Minor had a lackluster season. Or that Richard Dornbush was in juniors and that Bradley finished 18th at last year's worlds (and all things consider, he did finish 18th while being injured, I would think he would be in much better shape this year).

    But I agree with many of the others that you can waste a lot of time trying to compare past results. And I think when you look back, there were very few cases of a favorite bombing in the first place. In general, the favorites usually do win. But that didn't happen tonight and others rose the occasion. Personally, I'd rather reward them for holding up under the pressure.

    As for Virtue/Moir, I did point out that federations CAN make exceptions to the rule. I think that was a reasonable one. They didn't bomb a competition. They were injured-- whole different story. In fact, if you look at the recent past (2008 U.S. Nationals nonwithstanding) the exceptions the USFSA do make usually involve injury. I didn't have a problem with Belbin and Agosto either for the same reason V/M was sent.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    You know what? It's perfectly possible that Ross Miner will finish higher than Ryan Bradley and Richard Dornbush at worlds. But he would be the odd man out in favor of Jeremy. First of all, that IS basing a decision on ONE competition - Ross should be out because he barely beat Jeremy for bronze at NATIONALS.

    I think evaluating a skater's past can be EXTREMELY subjective. I don't know Ross Miner's past but maybe it's more consistent on the junior level than Jeremy has been internationally. So one committee member could start to make that argument if he happens to like Ross better.
    Except Miner competed senior and posted lower scores. Abbott beat him @ NHK by 32 points.

    YOU say that only in the men is there a problem. But there are plenty of other posters who are pouting because Mirai didn't get to go to worlds and are trying to argue that she would make a better teammate than Rachael or even Alissa.
    Except if we were to base it on international performances, Flatt has two silvers and GPF spot to Nagasu's one. People are pouting because they don't like Flatt.

    If the Committee were to consider their pasts they could go in circles forever. Mirai was fourth in the Olympics and first in the SP at worlds. The international judges like her. But Rachael was 5th in 2008 worlds and this would be her third trip to worlds so she has more experience. Plus, Rachael had a more successful grand prix. Ah, but Rachael bombed at the GPF. Ah, But Mirai didn't even make it to finals. Yeah, but she might have if only so-and-so had not won at this other GP event Mirai wasn't even in so maybe it was just bad luck she didn't make to the final.
    That's where they should have clearly defined rules to follow.

    I see too much room for subjectivity and I think the committee should only screw with the placements in extroordinary occassions. Like when Nancy Kerrigan had to petition onto the Olympics because she got whacked in the knee.
    Hey, this choice makes it easier for Canada to maintain three spots, so I'm fine with it.

    ETA: Mrs. P, salient point. Neither Rippon nor Abbott have made the ironclad case internationally anyway.
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 02-01-2011 at 11:33 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trewyn View Post
    I'm sorry if this is random; but I'm beginning to understand why Ashley is first alternate for four continents... Is it because if Gao and Zawadzki were to do 4CC they'd lose their eligibility for Jr Worlds because of the new rules? Zawadzki surely would, because she's done the Sr GP?

    I hope Ashley will get to go... It would be sad if here season were to be over..
    Eligibility for JW is based ONLY on age, not on what other competitions a skater has done. Ashley is first alternate for 4CC because Gao and Zawadzki are assigned to JW, which starts just a week after 4CC.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Except Miner competed senior and posted lower scores. Abbott beat him @ NHK by 32 points.



    Except if we were to base it on international performances, Flatt has two silvers and GPF spot to Nagasu's one. People are pouting because they don't like Flatt.



    That's where they should have clearly defined rules to follow.



    Hey, this choice makes it easier for Canada to maintain three spots, so I'm fine with it.

    ETA: Mrs. P, salient point. Neither Rippon nor Abbott have made the ironclad case internationally anyway.
    You don't need to defend Flatt's placement on the world team to me. I'm all for it. I was trying to make a point about comparing records.
    Are Flatt's GP medals more impressive than Mirai's 4th place finish at the Olympics? Maybe. Maybe not. I can imagine the committee having endless discussions just like this one. And the decision would come down to whether committe member A likes Rachael or not.

  13. #88
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    Has it been CONFIRMED anywhere/from anyone of importance that Bradley was asked and declined 4CC?

    I would have thought that Bradley would want a competition before worlds since Nationals was his first competition this season. He certainly could use another run-through before worlds.

    I don't really care who's sent to worlds. On one hand I would think that Abbott is out for 2014 so why not get the next guys prepared and shown off on the international stage well in advance of the olympics. On the other hand I feel a bit bad for Abbott, but he certainly made his own bed....

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    But if Nationals is in fact the be-all-and-end-all, why bother with 4CC/Worlds/Olympics etc. Why bother with international competition at all if it's essentially a three month denouement?
    Just to make my position clear, I think it is very important to send the best possible team to Worlds. In fact, that is right up there at number two in the USFSA's list of priorities.

    Number one is to fulfill their responsibility to carry out a fair, inclusive, and transparent selection process.

  15. #90
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMK0902 View Post
    Has it been CONFIRMED anywhere/from anyone of importance...
    *gasp* Are you saying that the posters on this board are not important?

    We are, you know. Just ask us.

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