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Thread: When to Abort Second or Third Jumps?

  1. #1
    Rinkside
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    When to Abort Second or Third Jumps?

    I hope I'm posting this in the proper section.

    Perhaps Mathman can do his numbers magic on this. When does it make sense for a skater to not tack on a combo jump? I understand the need to do so if you're performing a duplicate jump, but I find so many skaters add wonky double-toes or loops that make the overall combination less aesthetically pleasing and weaker in its execution. Doesn't the negative GOE cancel out the jumps in many cases? Can it have an impact on PCS?

    I suppose this could be more of an issue in the short program with the required combo.

    Am I the only one that finds these tack-ons tacky?

  2. #2
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    It's all about getting the most points for what you are doing so it really all depends.

    In the short programme it's a moot point really as three jump combinations are not allowed, and one of the elements is a mandatory combination, so if you don't at least put a double jump on the end of one of the jumps then you are going to get -3 across the board for not doing a combination. Even a sloppy double toe with an error could end up with -2 or -1 depending on how good the first jump was and how serious the error on the second jump is so it's always worth it compared to leaving it out.

    As to the LP, I'm not a fan of three jump combinations except maybe Kevin VDP's 3/3/3s back in the day. The reason I liked his was because all three jumps were a similar size and he often had reasonable flow out at the end. The jumps that start out ok and then get smaller and slower by the end are not great and to my mind detract from the programme. But the rules say you can do one three jump combination, so if you don't do one you will leave easy points on the table especially if you plan your 2/2 after your best triple because doing a triple with elements that would garner you +GOE can offset the weaker final double.

    Ant

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    Are you asking whether to plan the full number of combinations allowed?

    Or whether to decide in the middle of a planned combination not to do the second (or third) jump?

  4. #4
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    I agree that adding on a 2loop to the end of a two jump combo often looks MEH. Most skaters do that 2loop at an almost standstill. But is it worth it under the COP?

    Absolutely.

    A 2loop is worth 1.8 before the second half, and almost 2 points after. Podiums have been decided on less points than that. Does the potential negative GOE cancel it out? Not at all. Unless they fall (but that applies to most elements in skating with a low base value). Otherwise, a wonky landing usually gets a -1 or -2, which translates to a point loss of around -0.7 or -1.4 when the first jump is a triple, but the 2loop more than makes up for that. And most of the time there won't be negative GOE, as landing that final 2loop at a standstill or a substantial loss of speed doesn't seem to faze judges much. Looking at past protocol sheets, even an under rotation call on the 2loop doesn't dent the score that much. With a UR call, the 2loop is worth only 1.4, but not enough judges will give a -2 to make that negative goe go over 1.4.

    So when should a skater abort that 2loop on the end of a 3 jump combo? When he runs out of room, like Adam Rippon did in his national LPs last night. Otherwise, if you can do it, you should.

    Edited to add: Oh, you also asked if a less than flowy ending on that 2loop would affect PCS. The answer is not at all. Even multiple falls don't dent the PCS much (just ask Kostner, Buttle or Chan). Falls and errors on the technical elements are scored entirely separately. The PCS reflects a skater's ability and performance apart from those. The only way it could affect the PCS is if having to land that 2loop makes a skater lose his/her showmanship and skating skills completely, which I've never seen or heard of.
    Last edited by Serious Business; 01-31-2011 at 12:40 PM.

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    Why don't skaters make all their jumps combinations/sequences? Why even bother doing single jumps, like one triple lutz or one triple flip?

  6. #6
    Rinkside
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    Why don't skaters make all their jumps combinations/sequences? Why even bother doing single jumps, like one triple lutz or one triple flip?
    Just as skaters are limited to how often they can perform a particular triple jump (Zayak rule), they are limited to three jumping passes in combination, one of which consisting of three jumps.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I think I agree with Serious Business' analysis. With the CoP nothing counts except points. Toss in an extra 2T and you've got 1.4 points. It is unlikely that the GOE on the element will suffer or that anything will be lost in PCSs no matter how ungainly the extra jump was. 1.4 points is 1.4 points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think I agree with Serious Business' analysis. With the CoP nothing counts except points. Toss in an extra 2T and you've got 1.4 points. It is unlikely that the GOE on the element will suffer or that anything will be lost in PCSs no matter how ungainly the extra jump was. 1.4 points is 1.4 points.
    Actually if a skater loses enough speed that the (second or) third jump is underrotated, wobbles on and off the wrong edge, etc., then they probably will lose GOE.

    Look at Jeremy Abbott's three-jump combination in the long program at Nationals this week:
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...6/results.html

    He lost 1.5 in GOE on that element, so he probably would have been better off not doing the third jump, which was where the problem was.

    Because it isn't easy to maintain speed through three jumps, when skaters do manage to keep a running edge on a third landing, it makes sense to reward them.

    On the other hand, judges also want to see landings with really strong landings, good speed and control, which is most likely to happen with solo jumps. Hence the limit on the total number of combinations, which has been around a lot longer than the IJS.

  9. #9
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Ah but in that case he did a 3l/2t/2t combo instead of a 3l/2t/2l. Although now that I checked a 2l with an UR call is only worth 1.3. If enough judges give -2 you will lose -.1 and be better off not doing the jump.

    However, it is a risk worth taking. At the GPF where Rachael Flatt got an UR call on both the salchow and loop of her 3s/2t/2l combo, she nonetheless only got -1.2 in GOE. It's worth the gamble if you're doing a 2loop.

    At the same time, a 2t benefits from the picking to generate speed and height, and is less susceptible to UR calls. Jeremy got really unlucky with that call and deduction, I think. I think at that level, especially in men's, skaters can land ratified 2toes from a standstill. So I stand by my advice. If a skater can do a 3 jump combo, they should.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Actually if a skater loses enough speed that the (second or) third jump is underrotated, wobbles on and off the wrong edge, etc., then they probably will lose GOE.

    Look at Jeremy Abbott's three-jump combination in the long program at Nationals this week:
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...6/results.html

    He lost 1.5 in GOE on that element, so he probably would have been better off not doing the third jump, which was where the problem was.

    Because it isn't easy to maintain speed through three jumps, when skaters do manage to keep a running edge on a third landing, it makes sense to reward them.

    On the other hand, judges also want to see landings with really strong landings, good speed and control, which is most likely to happen with solo jumps. Hence the limit on the total number of combinations, which has been around a lot longer than the IJS.
    I have a question (which I apologise for as I think I have asked it before and have fogotten the answer). If a skater executes a 3/2/2 and there is an error on the last double, does the GOE reduction have the reduction value of a triple or a double?

    Thanks
    Ant

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I have a question (which I apologise for as I think I have asked it before and have fogotten the answer). If a skater executes a 3/2/2 and there is an error on the last double, does the GOE reduction have the reduction value of a triple or a double?
    Triple; in a combination or sequence the GOE for the whole element is based on the highest-value jump.

    Anyway, my general rule of thumb would be always plan a three-jump combination if you are capable of pulling it off, but during the performance if your legs are too tired or you're off balance/slow on the earlier part of the combination or you're too close to the boards, leave out the last jump.

  12. #12
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Thanks gkelly!

    Ant

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