How is the Selection Made for Junior Worlds?

Here is the Listing for 2011

2011 World Junior Championships
Max Aaron
Jason Brown
Keegan Messing

Alternate 1 - Alexander Zahradnicek
Alternate 2 - Steven Evans
Alternate 3 - Philip Warren

Apparently the Junior Nationals are not as important as the Senior Nationals in selecting the Junior World Team.

Alexander Zahradnicek had the highest score in the SP and placed 2nd over all in the competion, and he was only given as an alternate to Junior Worlds.

Keegan Messing and Jason Brown opted to skate Senior Nats despite their eligiblity to skate Junior Nats. We know about the age thing, That's not what I am driving at.

Does it make sense to leave out a Nationals podium finisher in Juniors but not in Seniors?

Joesitz said:

Keegan Messing and Jason Brown opted to skate Senior Nats despite their eligiblity to skate Junior Nats.

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Neither Messing nor Brown were eligible to skate Junior at 2011 US Nationals. Brown opted to test up to Senior in the US for the 2010-11 season, while Messing placed 9th in his Senior debut at 2010 Nationals.

USFS' International Committee usually considers the results/performances from Nationals and the season's JGP results when they select the Junior World team. Generally, the Junior national champions in singles are not guaranteed to be selected to Junior Worlds -- it all depends on how they skate at Nationals and how many age-eligible skaters are in the Senior events. The main goals are to try and send the strongest team to Junior Worlds to ensure the maximum number of spots for both Junior Worlds and the JGP the following season.

Sylvia said:

Neither Messing nor Brown were eligible to skate Junior at 2011 US Nationals. Brown opted to test up to Senior in the US for the 2010-11 season, while Messing placed 9th in his Senior debut at 2010 Nationals.

USFS' International Committee usually considers the results/performances from Nationals and the season's JGP results when they select the Junior World team. Generally, the Junior national champions in singles are not guaranteed to be selected to Junior Worlds -- it all depends on how they skate at Nationals and how many age-eligible skaters are in the Senior events. The main goals are to try and send the strongest team to Junior Worlds to ensure the maximum number of spots for both Junior Worlds and the JGP the following season.

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I understand your reply, but there is no mention of Zahradnicek. Was he just not considered? What if Alexander place 1st?

Obviously Zahradnicek was considered since he was named the first alternate. If he had won the Junior title over Max Aaron (who won silver & bronze medals on the JGP & was 4th at the JGP Final), then perhaps he would have had a shot at the 3rd spot. Both Zahradnicek and Aaron landed 6 triples in their respective Nationals free skates, but Aaron attempted two 3A, landing one, which gave him a significant edge, IMO.

Help me understand a bit if you could. I'm taking from this that once you compete at the Sr Level with in the USFSA, you are no longer able to compete as a Jr here, but can compete as a Jr within the ISU. I assume also that once you move to Srs internationally you can't go back either.

Also - how different are the requirements for the Jr. Men vs Sr. Men? I know it's 30 seconds shorter for Jrs

I know Sr is 13 elements, - 8 jumping passes, 3 spins and 2 step sequences - iirc

Finally, are PCS scores theoretically transferable from Jrs. to Srs. - ie if a Jr skater gets 5.5 in transitions, he would probably get 5.5 for the same skate in Srs.


I guess what I'm getting at is - can you look at Sr. protocol sheets and extrapolate an approximate score if they had skated in Jrs.?

ivy said:

Help me understand a bit if you could. I'm taking from this that once you compete at the Sr Level with in the USFSA, you are no longer able to compete as a Jr here, but can compete as a Jr within the ISU. I assume also that once you move to Srs internationally you can't go back either.

Also - how different are the requirements for the Jr. Men vs Sr. Men? I know it's 30 seconds shorter for Jrs

I know Sr is 13 elements, - 8 jumping passes, 3 spins and 2 step sequences - iirc

Finally, are PCS scores theoretically transferable from Jrs. to Srs. - ie if a Jr skater gets 5.5 in transitions, he would probably get 5.5 for the same skate in Srs.

I guess what I'm getting at is - can you look at Sr. protocol sheets and extrapolate an approximate score if they had skated in Jrs.?

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Excellent points and questions. I hope someone can answer them

Personally, I negated Rippons second gold because he had already skated Seniors. I'm of the ilk that a skater relinquishes his junior status if he skates in a senior competition or he is not elligible to skate Seniors because of his age - whichever. I don't see why the USFS and the ISU can't agree on this.

ivy said:

Help me understand a bit if you could. I'm taking from this that once you compete at the Sr Level with in the USFSA, you are no longer able to compete as a Jr here, but can compete as a Jr within the ISU.

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Yes, IF you are still age eligible.

Junior is an age group in ISU competition.

It's a test level in the US.

There's a lot of overlap in the skaters involved, but what qualifies them to enter junior (or senior) competitions is different for international and US events.

I assume also that once you move to Srs internationally you can't go back either.

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Not true. As long as you still meet the junior age requirements, you can compete at senior worlds, senior Grand Prix, Olympics, etc., and then compete at Junior Worlds. I can find you plenty of examples of skaters who have done so.

I think the only restriction is that after you win a senior world medal you're not allowed to compete in ISU junior events.

Also - how different are the requirements for the Jr. Men vs Sr. Men? I know it's 30 seconds shorter for Jrs

I know Sr is 13 elements, - 8 jumping passes, 3 spins and 2 step sequences - iirc

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Junior long program is the same as the senior with one less element. Junior men don't get a second (choreo) step sequence, and junior ladies don't get a spiral sequence.

Junior short program does not allow quads and does allow double jump as the solo jump out of steps (specified as lutz, flip, or loop each year) and does allow double-double combination.

Senior ladies can now do triple axel as the solo axel, but junior ladies still must do double axel.

The flying spin, and the change-foot spin for men, are specified as either camel or sit position each year.

Finally, are PCS scores theoretically transferable from Jrs. to Srs. - ie if a Jr skater gets 5.5 in transitions, he would probably get 5.5 for the same skate in Srs.

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No more or less comparable than any two different competitions with different performances and different judging panels.

But remember that the junior long program is 30 seconds shorter. If cutting out 30 seconds means cutting out transitions, that might result in a lower transitions score.

Looked at the other way, if adding 30 seconds for the senior program includes adding more transitional moves, that would likely result in a higher transitions score.

I guess what I'm getting at is - can you look at Sr. protocol sheets and extrapolate an approximate score if they had skated in Jrs.?

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You can make a rough guess. Subtract the points for the choreo sequence from the long program.

If the short program elements are different to meet the junior requirements, take those differences into account.

But the GOEs and the PCS are going to vary depending on how well the skater performs at each competition and how generous or stingy that particular judging panel tends to be with the marks. Just like comparing two different competitions at the same level, you can't expect the scores to be identical for the same technical content.

I understand what you are saying but keep in mind that Jason Brown was the 2010 Junior National champion and was not sent to junior worlds last year. After his phenomonal performance at this year's seniors he certainly deserves the spot.

From what I've read in protocols, the panel of judges tend to give out lower PCS overall in junior competitions. This is to be expected, as junior skaters don't have that polish yet. However, I have noticed that even the standouts, the junior skaters who have skating skills and interpretation and what have you that would be exceptional even among seniors only wind up on the high side of those low PCS marks. When they skate in senior competition, they get a boost in their PCS as judges feel freer to award high PCS in senior comps. This doesn't actually affect their competition results, but it's something to keep in mind when extrapolating junior scores to predict senior scores.

gkelley, once again I'm in you debt, and thanks Serious Business for that very useful insight.

I did some poking through the protocol sheets what I saw was that Jason Brown and Keegan Messing were some 20 points above any of the skaters at Jr. Nat'ls., some of which is probably due to the Sr. PCS bump that Sr. Business addressed. Looking only at TES in the FS, Max Aaron actually places right between Keegan and Jason, once you back out the choreo. step seq., and the three of them are about 10 points ahead of Alex Z..