Can a clean Agnes win JW? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Can a clean Agnes win JW?

Can she win JW?


  • Total voters
    59

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Agnes needs alot of work on her skating skills and speed. It would be one thing if she was just a bit worse but she is alot worse than the best skaters in those areas. If she can improve those she will be hard to beat.
 

oleada

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Agnes needs alot of work on her skating skills and speed. It would be one thing if she was just a bit worse but she is alot worse than the best skaters in those areas. If she can improve those she will be hard to beat.

Which is why I really wish she'd leave her coaching team...all of Tom Z's skaters have these weaknesses. I'd love to see Yuka Sato work with her on these. Free Agnes! :p
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
If that bar graph at the top of this thread means anything. It shows Agnes against all the other skaters, and all the other skaters are winning this poll. To me it shows that Agnes may well be beating each skater on the blue bar.
 

cjsk8fan

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Agnes could get high GOE's on her jumps if she is on. She has the best jumps in the field as far as height and ice coverage. She also spins well. So I do think she has a fighting chance if she skates to her ability.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Agnes could get high GOE's on her jumps if she is on. She has the best jumps in the field as far as height and ice coverage. She also spins well. So I do think she has a fighting chance if she skates to her ability.

There's more to skating than just jumps though. Agnes may have bigger jumps but its not like Sotnikova's jumps are puny and little. (Same goes with Tukt)

What Adelina has over Agnes is in the area of skating skills. Sotnikova's coach in the article said it well when she said that sometimes you have skaters who can jump/spin but can't skate. Or skaters who can skate but not jump. Sotnikova has both. And Agnes skating skills really do need work.

Adelina's basics really are amazing. She's a baby ballerina, who can jump and also has speed, ice coverage.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Yes but Agnes lips, so they cancel each other out there. Adelina has better skating skills than Agnes. AND harder jump content. Agnes jumps are really out of this world, but its not like Sotnikova's jumps are bad.

How many lip does Agnes do in both SP and LP? 1
How many flutzes does Adelina do in both programs? 3.

How do they cancel each other out? :unsure:
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Adelina's flutzes don't always get called.

Agnes can win, but I don't think she will.

I think Adelina will win, Liza will come in 2nd, and Christina, Agnes, or Risa will come in 3rd. Unless Liza bombs the SP, in which case she could be off the podium.
 

cjsk8fan

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Agnes did not have an edge call at Nationals. I also am no expert on skating skill admittingly, but she sure was praised at Nationals by the commentators that she had the whole package. I know that may not mean much, but since speed is difficult to calculate by watching television, I guess that is what I have to go on. I think the biggest challenge for Agnes is skating a clean long program. I haven't seen one this season. One thing I can expect is the unexpected. Who expected Agnes to be the silver medalist at Junior Worlds last year?
 

ibauer

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2011
Agnes did not have an edge call at Nationals. I also am no expert on skating skill admittingly, but she sure was praised at Nationals by the commentators that she had the whole package.

Scott and Sandra are given to hyperbole. Especially Scott. I think it would be fairer to say that she could have the whole package, but I doubt that she will achieve that at Broadmoor under Zakrajsek's training methods. It seems like his skaters reach a certain point and then stop progressing. They also share a lot of the same weaknesses: lack of speed, okay-at-best spins, not much in the way of interpretation.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
And they share the same strengths-the ability to correctly execute their jumps. You can look at it either way.

However, Jeremy Abbott, until recently a Tom Z student, had good skating skills.
Ryan Bradley, like him or not, has a great performance flair.

Dornbush, a Tom Z product, can spin quite well.

So making an overall case about Tom Z's students is moot: Tom Z can teach most students that will work at it to jump. Their other skills are all over the lot.
 

cjsk8fan

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Scott and Sandra are given to hyperbole. Especially Scott. I think it would be fairer to say that she could have the whole package, but I doubt that she will achieve that at Broadmoor under Zakrajsek's training methods. It seems like his skaters reach a certain point and then stop progressing. They also share a lot of the same weaknesses: lack of speed, okay-at-best spins, not much in the way of interpretation.

So you have seen all of them skate live? Also, I don't think Scott and Sandra said that about any other skater. Anyway, Agnes has musicality and a flair for performance. She may not be your cup of tea, but I think she has a bright future.
 

ibauer

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2011
I was not making a blanket declaration that all Zakrajsek skaters share all the same weaknesses. Re Abbott, he did not always train with Zakrajsek and has had ice dance training to boot (you knew that, though, didn't you, Doris?). I like Bradley and fully acknowledge that his interpretation skills are far better than most of Tom's students. Re Dornbush, that's news to me. I thought that he'd been with Tammy Gambill for 13 of his 19 years?
 

oleada

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Dornbush is not a Tom Z skater; he trains with Tammy Gambill and has for a long time.

I like Agnes, a lot. I just don't think she is being packaged right and won't be under her current team if their previous skaters are any example.

Scott and Sandra are just inept commentators, to be honest. One of them called Caroline Zhang's 3F "HUGE" and who can forget Scott thinking that Yagudin would lose the LP to Goebel in SLC? Agnes has great jumps and a fabulous layback, but her skating skills and speed DO need work. As for the edge calls in US Nationals....Ashley Wagner didn't get one in her SP. Nuff said.
 
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cjsk8fan

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Have you seen Agnes live in order to actually compare her with other top skaters? How exactly would you change the packaging of Agnes? And what skating skills does she need to improve on to compete with the top?
 

ibauer

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2011
How exactly would you change the packaging of Agnes? And what skating skills does she need to improve on to compete with the top?

Getting rid of the hideous costumes would be a good start. Finding music she can really relate to and interpret. Improving her lines. Building up her speed.
 

cjsk8fan

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Frankly I think her musicality and lines are quite good. She is not a baby ballerina, however. Speed looks okay, but I haven't seen her live yet. I actually think her long program costume is quite nice, although I am not crazy about the short program one.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Which is why I really wish she'd leave her coaching team...all of Tom Z's skaters have these weaknesses. I'd love to see Yuka Sato work with her on these. Free Agnes! :p

Yeah all his skaters are SLOW. Flatt is painfully slow as well most of the time. The only one with reasonable speed under him that I recall was Abbott, but not excessively so by any means.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Frankly I think her musicality and lines are quite good. She is not a baby ballerina, however. Speed looks okay, but I haven't seen her live yet. I actually think her long program costume is quite nice, although I am not crazy about the short program one.

But the point of the matter is there are plenty of people who have seen Agnes live to say that Agnes speed, and stroking needs some real work. She's very talented but it something that needs to be worked on and her current coaching staff hasn't shown the ability to do this.

In contrast, everyone who has seen Sotnikova live has been impressed with her speed, stroking, and ice coverage. And Adelina is 2 years younger.

And as for Scott/Sandra they said at one point that Zhang had it all. Agnes I think has some of the most talent of all the US girls and I think there's more than enough time to get her the improvement she needs but really a coaching change is in order.
 

cjsk8fan

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
I am not doubting that Sotnikova is very good. And she probably will win Junior Worlds. But does Agnes have a chance? I think she does. Funny, talking about Zhang as a Junior, I never thought she would be a top senior skater because of all her technical problems. I saw her as having great spins and that was about it. She was certainly cute. Out of the two, Zhang and Nagasu, I thought Nagasu had the edge. I thought the same with Kim and Asada. Mao also had many technique issues with her jumps and Kim did not. Therefore, I thought Kim was better. I do think that Agnes has many fine qualities. Can she improve? Ofcourse she can, and I hope she does. I am glad she is a different skater, not a baby ballerina. What coach do you think can improve all what you call her deficiencies?
 
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