Coaches berating their skaters in Kiss N Cry

We must face the fact that most of the fans of figure skating are ladies, and they hold to a different standard of sports behavior than what men would hold. To me, it is not the end of the sport if a coach berates his student unintentionally in the public's eye. If it bothers the skater, which is more important, then he has the option to switch coaches, otherwise the skater may practice harder.

Joesitz said:

If it bothers the skater, which is more important, then he has the option to switch coaches, otherwise the skater may practice harder.

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Totally correct imo as always. The issue for me is it was public display, and maybe the fact it is in my nature to be a guy who does not like seeing girls or youth in general treated this way that bothers me and classify it as unnecessary and completely unprofessional. But look at what we let hockey and foot ball and Baseball and .... well. this is a relegated factor in occupations and I think it should be the same way for sports. It is perpetuation of " it is OK to yell and have no control over your emotions. Just as I agree with Frank there is probably to much crying in FS as well. It takes a germ to create a illness.

Not even going to decipher that tirade up above.

Regards the topic, BFD if somebody gets yelled at in the K&C. If they can't handle it, leave, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Btw, I for one don't put Yuka on some sort of pedestal. But hey she's young, most people remember her from her skating days, and she's Asian, whereas Frank is just an old white man.

I think it is more OK for a coach to have "choice words" for their skater in the KnC than for a skater to go catatonic, either when they have a good skate or a bad skate. Although one might be overflowing with excitement after a good skate (Oksana gushing with tears in 1994), or languishing in disappointment (Sikharulidze walked away from the KnC in 1997, after plummeting to 9th), I wish skaters would exhibit more comportment while awaiting their scores, or receiving their scores.

On the subject of coaches who sit with their students in subdued silence after a bad skate, like Orser with Adam Rippon -- that doesn't necessarily have to be a negative. Both skater and coach know they have work to do before the next competition, so they are sitting there shoulder to shoulder glumly taking what they have coming to them in terms of scores.

I don't see any reason for a coach to have to come up with a phony pep talk about, that's OK, keep your chin up, we'll get 'em next time.

Mathman said:

On the subject of coaches who sit with their students in subdued silence after a bad skate, like Orser with Adam Rippon -- that doesn't necessarily have to be a negative. Both skater and coach know they have work to do before the next competition, so they are sitting there shoulder to shoulder glumly taking what they have coming to them in terms of scores.

I don't see any reason for a coach to have to come up with a phony pep talk about, that's OK, keep your chin up, we'll get 'em next time.

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Well that pep talk that you do seem some coaches give; sometimes it's more for the benefit of the audience than of the skater. Some coaches and skaters want to show the public they have a good relationship. Frank Carroll doesn't seem to be one of them.

Layfan said:

yeah, Mirai doesn't remind me of Michelle much at all. Nobody reminds me of Michelle, really. She was unique. Mirai doesn't even have the same moves as Michelle.

p.s. no, carolina is no longer with Frank.

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I am actually trying to figure out where Michelle Kwan's style came from? Did she learn it from Frank or from Lori or was it something that she improvised? It doesn't seem like she's a generic Frank Carroll skater because, for one, her skating doesn't remind me either of Evan's or of Mirai's.

Random thoughts I may try to put together cohesively:

Respect is to be earned, not demanded. Geniune respect that is, not just a display per protocol. A person is not necessarily respectable by virtue of age or rank. Both elder and child abuses are abuses of power and intorelable in a society. And they happen.

K & C is public, very public. Teaching and learning take place everywhere but not in the same manner in public as in private. Public bashing by an authority is almost never productive except in cases where ability to take such bashing is considered part of the job or a show of being "man enough" to take and learn from it, more commonly expected in macho occupations such as in the military and in tough and rough team sports.

A skater and his/her coach are a team, working toward a common goal. Or they should.

If a coach is upset simply because of a poor performance, it's about his own ego. I think most coaches' upsets are frustrations at their skater's failure at certain aspects of skating the coach has tried hard to teach or thought have been overcome by the skater. It does not necessarily have anything to do with how much the skater has practiced. There is simply a failure of a lesson taught or learned or a premature expectation. The coach has shared responsibilities in such failures and the team needs to work it out. An initial silence, especially in public right after the performance, may just mean both the coach and the student are absorbing the situation, figuring how to deal with both the emotions and the remedy.

Obviously I'm against public berating, or private ones for that matter, of anybody, especially minors. It's an abuse of authority and unfair downloading of emotions and shared responsibilitie. Respect needs to go both way. The coach is supposed to be the mature and wise one so s/he should be examplary. S/he should consider different ways of teaching and motivating the student, including bringing in specialists who are more able to impart knowledge in certain areas. If the coach and student are not competible and the relationship is not conducive to the skater's growth, then the relationship should be terminated, as when either party is dissatisfied or even frustrated with the other. Otherwise it's not a healthy relationship which will only hamper the skater's progress or worse.

OTOH, to show some empathy for the coaches who may have lost it occasionally at the K&C, it's not necessary a normal pattern of their relationship. We only get a glimpse of their interations, like children who witness the parents' scary fights but not the private making up and other happy interations.

attyfan said:

I read somewhere that a version of the incident on fsvids shows Mirai saying "I gave it away ..." when she comes off the ice, and, Frank responding "yeah, you gave it away. I'm sorry." If true, then IMO, it puts a whole different "spin" on the matter.

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This excellent post got lost in the shuffle.

I think Frank Carroll learned a lesson with Linda Fratianne. Fratianne was convinced that she was robbed of the Olympic gold medal by collusion among the Austro-German judging bloc. Carroll encouraged this complaint. In fact, he was quite vociferous about biased judging even before the event occurred, threatening to withhold his skater from the Olympics altogether.

Fratianne never recovered and the bitterness that she felt almost destroyed her life.

When Michelle Kwan came along I think Carroll was determined that this wouldn't happen again. When Michelle finished second to Tara in 1998, Frank clipped in the bud any tendency that Michelle might have felt to moan about being robbed, woe is me, everyone is picking on me. He told her that her performance was too cautious, lacking the spark and freedom that she was capable of, and that is why she lost.

Michelle took her silver medal, had a good cry, and then went on with her life.

I think this has become Carroll's style with all of his skaters.

krenseby said:

Well that pep talk that you do seem some coaches give; sometimes it's more for the benefit of the audience than of the skater. Some coaches and skaters want to show the public they have a good relationship. Frank Carroll doesn't seem to be one of them.



I am actually trying to figure out where Michelle Kwan's style came from? Did she learn it from Frank or from Lori or was it something that she improvised? It doesn't seem like she's a generic Frank Carroll skater because, for one, her skating doesn't remind me either of Evan's or of Mirai's.

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Well, I'm not sure. I think Lori are and Frank certainly deserve much credit for the astonishing transformation Michelle had between 1995 and 1996. Frank brought Lori in to give some maturity and artistry to Michelle's skating and she did. After that, Lori gave Michelle some incredible choreo. But I think it's Michelle's wonderful ability to show passion with every movement that truly gives her her style. I have loved watching many other skaters since Michelle (or during her era)- Yuna, Mao, Sasha, Alissa, Mirai - but nobody has ever made me as emotional as Michelle could.

This excellent post got lost in the shuffle.

I think Frank Carroll learned a lesson with Linda Fratianne. Fratianne was convinced that she was robbed of the Olympic gold medal by collusion among the Austro-German judging bloc. Carroll encouraged this complaint. In fact, he was quite vociferous about biased judging even before the event occurred, threatening to withhold his skater from the Olympics altogether.

Fratianne never recovered and the bitterness that she felt almost destroyed her life.

When Michelle Kwan came along I think Carroll was determined that this wouldn't happen again. When Michelle finished second to Tara in 1998, Frank clipped in the bud any tendency that Michelle might have felt to moan about being robbed, woe is me, everyone is picking on me. He told her that her performance was too cautious, lacking the spark and freedom that she was capable of, and that is why she lost.

Michelle took her silver medal, had a good cry, and then went on with her life.

I think this has become Carroll's style with all of his skaters.

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Interesting. Last year during the K&C, after Mirai skated wonderfully and they were waiting for her marks, Frank told her no matter what happens, you should be happy. If he was surprised she was second, he hid it well during the moment. Probably helped that she made the Olympic team, of course. He did grumble a bit later that one or two of the UR calls might have been wrong.

Joesitz said:

We must face the fact that most of the fans of figure skating are ladies, and they hold to a different standard of sports behavior than what men would hold.

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I don't know about that.

Joesitz said:

To me, it is not the end of the sport if a coach berates his student unintentionally in the public's eye. If it bothers the skater, which is more important, then he has the option to switch coaches, otherwise the skater may practice harder.

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Yes. To feel some sort of pressure from the coach might be a good thing and one of the many motives for student to practice harder. It totally depends on whether the student can take it or not. If not, then this coach is not suitable for him/her. Also the coach should know to what extend he/she should push the student.

These are world class elite athletes. If they can't take some constructive criticism from their coaches than maybe they should take up knitting.

Layfan said:

Well, I'm not sure. I think Lori are and Frank certainly deserve much credit for the astonishing transformation Michelle had between 1995 and 1996. Frank brought Lori in to give some maturity and artistry to Michelle's skating and she did. After that, Lori gave Michelle some incredible choreo. But I think it's Michelle's wonderful ability to show passion with every movement that truly gives her her style. I have loved watching many other skaters since Michelle (or during her era)- Yuna, Mao, Sasha, Alissa, Mirai - but nobody has ever made me as emotional as Michelle could.

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You know I agree with you about your last point, Layfan! And I speak as someone who is thrilled with YuNa and Mao and loves the other skaters you mention. Michelle is now and probably forever at the top of my "life list."

As for Michelle's artistic transformation, certainly Lori and Frank have much to do with it. They were able to imagine possibilities way beyond what most others could have envisioned, and then they followed through with innovative choreography and meticulous training in technique.

But I'm sure they have worked just as hard with other skaters. The deciding factor in Michelle's success was Michelle herself. She combined many crucial gifts that are rarely found in one skater: focus, the ability to work hard, coolness under pressure, consistency, razor-sharp technique, visual grace (which she proves is possible without extreme bendiness!), musicality, and the almost eerie ability to connect with an audience. Maybe she wouldn't have done as well (or done well as soon in her career) with another coach/choreographer team, but as history has proved, no other skater has done as splendidly with Frank. Not Linda Fratianne (an excellent skater but not half as poetic), not Carolina Kostner, and not Mirai (at least not yet). Evan perhaps comes closest in terms of success, but as many posters here have pointed out, we're not going to be warming ourselves by the light of his YouTube videos ten years from now. Michelle is a skater for the ages. Evan, much as I admire the guy's work ethic and success, is not.

I often think of Michelle as Frank and Lori's muse. She brought a lot of the magic to this relationship. That's a kind of lightning that doesn't strike often. I've seen it but a few other times. Offhand I can recall only Brian Boitano with Linda Leaver and Sandra Bezic in his masterful Olympic year, and of course YuNa with Brian Orser and David Wilson. I'm sure there are others, but not a whole heap of them. Treasure them!

Jammers said:

These are world class elite athletes. If they can't take some constructive criticism from their coaches than maybe they should take up knitting.

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We are talking about berating the skaters in the K&C here, unless you consider that constructive criticism. World class elite athletes deserve some respect, not being put down in view of their fans and millions of TV viewers.

There is a big difference between public humiliation and constructive criticism in private. It is very unbecoming and selfish of coaches to let out their negative feelings on the spot. The skaters feel bad enough at such time already.

Jammers said:

These are world class elite athletes. If they can't take some constructive criticism from their coaches than maybe they should take up knitting.

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Can I borrow this quote? It is SO true! LOL!

In most other sports, there's no bemoaning that the coach laid into his/her guy when they screwed up when they came off the field/court, you know, the one who fumbled the ball and caused his team to lose, the one who struck out with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th inning, the one who missed the free throw....So Frank was frustrated because of Mirai's "throwing it away" and he let her know right then and there of that frustration. I am sure she shared those sentiments because she must have thought she was beyond that too! She hasn't dumped Frank and there's been no indication so far that she's going to do so and there's been no indication that he's dumping her. And if they amicably (or not so amicably) part, she moves on and he moves on. Such is life...

I have no problem with a coach being upset with their skater even in the eye of the cameras... I do think it incredibly wrong for them to air dirty laundry to the media ala Carrol (Mirai is not the first he's done this too). Frank has always come off as a gruff/grumpy old man, but he gets results. All coaches invest a lot of time and energy into their pupils, yes they're getting paid but it's no less frustrating when they don't see the skater hit the mark. Especially since we fans are so apt to blame said coach and demand our skater(s) change coaches whenever something seems to go wrong. They're under a lot of pressure as well...

I don't think a coach should go to the press when s/he is frustrated with their athlete, though, for whatever reason. It serves no purpose but to humiliate.

Serious Business said:

Frank testily told Mirai "you gave it away" as she came off the ice after her FS at the recent nationals.

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well...umm...she DID give it away! He wasn't lying there.

Tonichelle said:

I have no problem with a coach being upset with their skater even in the eye of the cameras... I do think it incredibly wrong for them to air dirty laundry to the media ala Carrol (Mirai is not the first he's done this too). Frank has always come off as a gruff/grumpy old man, but he gets results. All coaches invest a lot of time and energy into their pupils, yes they're getting paid but it's no less frustrating when they don't see the skater hit the mark. Especially since we fans are so apt to blame said coach and demand our skater(s) change coaches whenever something seems to go wrong. They're under a lot of pressure as well...

I don't think a coach should go to the press when s/he is frustrated with their athlete, though, for whatever reason. It serves no purpose but to humiliate.

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My thoughts exactly. Frank's comments to Mirai in the K&C were one thing. I've already said in this thread that once I watched the video I didn't even think they were as harsh and people were describing. Besides, they were true.

His gossipy comments to Phil Hersh are another matter.

krenseby said:

I am actually trying to figure out where Michelle Kwan's style came from? Did she learn it from Frank or from Lori or was it something that she improvised? It doesn't seem like she's a generic Frank Carroll skater because, for one, her skating doesn't remind me either of Evan's or of Mirai's.

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Kwan's style of skating was totally in the music she was skating to. It's all in the emotional feeling of music to skater. The proof is in Dance, where the steps of say Swan Lake are mandatory. Yet, the performances of all dancers are different because of the music they are dancing to. A plotless ballet, is a better example of the steps being the same, but the performances rely on the dancer's emotional feel of the music, and it's different interpretation. No one ever skated like Kwan. She had her own style, but Lori and Frank gave her the groundwork for that.

I don't need a K&C so I will not comment on this.

I misremembered. Here's exactly what Frank said in the K&C, see for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulektq3x-WI&feature=player_detailpage#t=385s

"So in the end you gave it away, I'm sorry," said Frank in a calm tone of voice. Then he patted her on the knee while Mirai facepalmed. That was not a berating. Blunt statement of fact, then a bit of comforting. During the replays you can hear Frank say "you didn't put any energy into that" regarding some move/jump, again in a calm, analytical voice.

Serious Business said:

I misremembered. Here's exactly what Frank said in the K&C, see for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulektq3x-WI&feature=player_detailpage#t=385s

"So in the end you gave it away, I'm sorry," said Frank in a calm tone of voice. Then he patted her on the knee while Mirai facepalmed. That was not a berating. Blunt statement of fact, then a bit of comforting. During the replays you can hear Frank say "you didn't put any energy into that" regarding some move/jump, again in a calm, analytical voice.

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yes, that is the way I thought of it too when I watched it.