Coaches berating their skaters in Kiss N Cry

[cooper]

This whole Mirai-Frank situation was blown out of proportion.

[R.D.]

We must face the fact that most of the fans of figure skating are ladies, and they hold to a different standard of sports behavior than what men would hold. To me, it is not the end of the sport if a coach berates his student unintentionally in the public's eye. If it bothers the skater, which is more important, then he has the option to switch coaches, otherwise the skater may practice harder.

I agree. I'm not sure why it is such a big deal to so many. Then again, this is the same "sport" where skaters, especially female ones, are discouraged from showing their competitiveness. Huh? Give me Ashley Wagner any day over, say, Czisny.

[Mathman]

This whole Mirai-Frank situation was blown out of proportion.

I agree. If the kiss and cry episode went like this:

Mirai: "I gave it away. (*sniff*)"
Frank: "Yes, you gave it away. I'm sorry. (Now tell your fans to stop throwing teddy bears at me.)"

-- I can't really get all up in arms.

As for the Hersh article, it is Hersh's job to ask provocative questions and to spin the answers in such a way as to make a newspaper column that is talked about.

The content of Frank's "mooning comment" was, "Mirai was so nervous out there before she even started that she kept fiddling with her boot laces over and over. What was the point of that, trying to moon someone? Just go out there and skate the program you trained!"

[Layfan]

I agree. If the kiss and cry episode went like this:

Mirai: "I gave it away. (*sniff*)"
Frank: "Yes, you gave it away. I'm sorry. (Now tell your fans to stop throwing teddy bears at me.)"

-- I can't really get all up in arms.

As for the Hersh article, it is Hersh's job to ask provocative questions and to spin the answers in such a way as to make a newspaper column that is talked about.

The content of Frank's "mooning comment" was, "Mirai was so nervous out there before she even started that she kept fiddling with her boot laces over and over. What was the point of that, trying to moon someone? Just go out there and skate the program you trained!"

It is not about Hersh. Any reporter would have published those remarks. It was a great scoop. It's about what Frank chose to say and how he said it.

I agree. I'm not sure why it is such a big deal to so many. Then again, this is the same "sport" where skaters, especially female ones, are discouraged from showing their competitiveness. Huh? Give me Ashley Wagner any day over, say, Czisny.

no good "showing" your competitiveness if you actually aren't competitive in competition.

[R.D.]

no good "showing" your competitiveness if you actually aren't competitive in competition.

Not talking about trash talking or bragging, which would put external pressure on you to back up what you say. I'm talking about openly striving to be a champion instead of hiding behind the dreaded phrase "Just want to have fun" or its awful variant, "Just want to skate my best". There's a difference between saying what you want to do- and saying you're going to do it. The latter requires walking the walk.

[ImaginaryPogue]

I agree. I'm not sure why it is such a big deal to so many. Then again, this is the same "sport" where skaters, especially female ones, are discouraged from showing their competitiveness. Huh? Give me Ashley Wagner any day over, say, Czisny.

Alissa did show her competitiveness by improving her jumps, showing her mettle in landing jumps that would likely be lost in the past (the loop at Nationals), by demonstrating she could up the points (doing a three jump combination). A fierce fight is definitely shows competitiveness, but so does calm command.

I don't have qualms with Frank's attitude towards Mirai in the KnC (except the awkwardness of the whole thing). I don't care for him publically criticizing her - they have a professional relationship. If a high school student hired Mathman as a tutor and doesn't get the effort from the student he wants, it would be unbecoming of MM to go to the (school) newspaper and tell the world that. Furthermore, Frank's been around the block, so if Hersh is asking provocative questions, he should know how to side-step.

[SkateFiguring]

If a high school student hired Mathman as a tutor and doesn't get the effort from the student he wants, it would be unbecoming of MM to go to the (school) newspaper and tell the world that.

Or gripe about it in the Golden Skate forum.

[Layfan]

Not talking about trash talking or bragging, which would put external pressure on you to back up what you say. I'm talking about openly striving to be a champion instead of hiding behind the dreaded phrase "Just want to have fun" or its awful variant, "Just want to skate my best". There's a difference between saying what you want to do- and saying you're going to do it. The latter requires walking the walk.

It is refreshing when skaters say I want to win. Ashley didn't say that though. She said her goal was to make the world team. Alissa said the same thing. But I know what you mean.

[R.D.]

It is refreshing when skaters say I want to win. Ashley didn't say that though.

actually she did. In a recent interview she stated that her (long-term) goal was to win in Sochi.

[Binthere]

Such a delicate balance. Of course they ALL want to win. NOBODY puts this much time, money, effort into such a fickle sport unless they "want" to win. Saying it is the issue. How, when, put in context by ?? Seems always better to be safe and say your goals are to do your best. If already a proven champion, then you had better say you want to win, since that is what is "expected"

I remember reading somewhere (book?) that Kurt Browning talked about how he got Kristi to admit she wanted to win by making her say it out loud. Now whether Kristi would have been well received for going out in front of a TV reporter and saying this out loud, seems a completely different thing IMHO.

[Layfan]

actually she did. In a recent interview she stated that her (long-term) goal was to win in Sochi.

Really? I didn't realize. Well, good luck with that...

But yes, I agree it's always cool when the skaters go out and say, no, what I'm really doing this for is to win.

Such a delicate balance. Of course they ALL want to win. NOBODY puts this much time, money, effort into such a fickle sport unless they "want" to win. Saying it is the issue. How, when, put in context by ?? Seems always better to be safe and say your goals are to do your best. If already a proven champion, then you had better say you want to win, since that is what is "expected"

I remember reading somewhere (book?) that Kurt Browning talked about how he got Kristi to admit she wanted to win by making her say it out loud. Now whether Kristi would have been well received for going out in front of a TV reporter and saying this out loud, seems a completely different thing IMHO.

If memory serves, Michelle and Tara made no secret they wanted to win Nagano. I don't think they were obnoxious about it but they both knew they could do it and they both wanted it. I don't think it came across badly.

Sarah and Sasha always said they were in it to win gold. I remember an interview when Sarah specifically said before nationals in 2001 or 2002, can't remember. Didn't work out for her then but clearly she went to SLC to win and probably believed in her chances even though Michelle and Irina were the favorites.

Of courrse, they are skaters who are genuinely over the moon with non-gold medals like Chen Lu with bronze in Nagano and Joannie in Vancouver. Not that I think they weren't in it do win but given their circumstances, they were genuinely proud of their effort.

Oh yeah - and we can't forget Irina Slutskaya. If lady skaters are discouraged from talking competitively, she definitely didn't get the memo

[R.D.]

It was, IIRC, in the Washington Post video about her talking about her muscle spasm issues.

[R.D.]

Such a delicate balance. Of course they ALL want to win. NOBODY puts this much time, money, effort into such a fickle sport unless they "want" to win. Saying it is the issue. How, when, put in context by ?? Seems always better to be safe and say your goals are to do your best.

Be safe?! From what??? This is where I vehemently disagree but I will spare you the extensive tirade. Are we talking about a sport or not? Where exactly are you aiming if you simply "want to do your best"? SOMETHING has to drive you to that point. If you just want to have fun, you'd skate recreationally, right? That's why I say that it is a hogwash statement used only to save face in front of people who think it's wrong that skaters should even bother to be competitive...

Again, there is a difference between saying you WANT to win, and saying you are GOING TO win. Now, one of the strategies to do so may be very well to "skate your best" and try not to get too hung up on medals- but that's only a means, not an end.

We need to have more (female) skaters who are forward/upfront about their goals.

[ivy]

Too me there is a difference about saying you want to be good enough to beat the best (ergo winning), and saying you want to win. Do you want your opponents to fall, do you want the judges to underscore them, do you want them to catch a cold?

I think most competitors an most sports want to win but they want to do it by performing their best, while their opponents perform at peak as well. Winning as the only or primary goal is what brings us judging scandals and Nancy/Tonya shenanigans.

I'm sure Allissa (for example) wants to win Worlds, and if her competitors aren't trained enough or focused enough to deliver two clean programs and she does, and she wins I'm sure she'd be thrilled, rightly so. I bet she'd be even happier if her competitors skated great and she still won! It would save us years of future threads about how - sure Allissa won Worlds, but Yu Na had taken the season off and changed coaches, and Mao was reworking all of her jumps and Mirai had problems at Nat'ls and ......

All you can really control is yourself, and skating your best is a pretty good goal, especially when it makes you a winner.

[Mathman]

[Responding to RD's post one up.] Nah, I don't agree. Athletes have no obligation to say anything at all.

If you ask an athlete, do you want to win, they have every right to say, heck, no, fool, I'm just up here picking my nose, wuddya think?

Or to say, "I just want to skate my best and look pretty (Idiot!)" They can say the idiot part out loud or leave it out.

But anyway, they don't have to say what we want them to say, or anything else.

By the way, I don't know about the Olympic gold medal, but Kristi really, really, really wanted to win Dancing With the Stars.

I bet she was insufferable on the airplane ride from LA back to New York to do the talk shows with all the losers. "Look at my trophy! Do you see my trophy? Where's your trophy? Oh, you don't have one?"