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Thread: Patrick Chan AND Don Jackson!

  1. #31
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Right, and making this sport shrink even faster than it does. Making men not look like men and ladies not look like ladies. Thankfully, your wish won't happen anytime soon.
    Actually, I am getting my wish. Because of the COP, especially its newer updates that restrict how a skater can gain level in spins (there's a limit to how many times a level feature can be used), more and more male skaters have to show more flexibility in order to boost spin levels. For instance, we're seeing a lot more male skaters do donut spins now.

    But that's not going to stop the sport from picking up new fans. Because to an outsider or someone new to skating, a move like a Biellmann or a donut spin would not be associated with one gender or another. In the rest of society, there are certain gestures, movement, styles that are associated with one gender or another, the Biellmann, donut spins even arabesque spirals (which may be familiar from ballet, but ballet isn't mainstream any more either) just aren't part of most people's body language vocabulary. It would be a completely neutral move. The only thing that distinguishes them to a newbie is that they show flexibility. But so do many other skating moves men have always done, like Russian split jumps, sit spins, spread eagles, etc.

    It may drive some existing fans away from skating, because they don't like to see change. But then, this would be a far slower and smaller change than adopting the COP. It will sneak up on people and they will get used to it. For all your sensitivity towards men doing flexibility moves, have you been noticing more men doing donut spins and objecting to it? You're already sucked in, it's far too late!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Right, and making this sport shrink even faster than it does. Making men not look like men and ladies not look like ladies. Thankfully, your wish won't happen anytime soon.
    That is a terrible and extremely specious argument against male skaters incorporating more moves done traditionally by ladies skaters. After all, weren't the six basic figure skating jumps traditionally all done/invented by male skaters? Female skaters soon followed suit and as such, according to your argument, did "not look like ladies"...and the sport has hardly suffered for it.

    And don't forget, gender norms change as well--e.g. high heels were first worn by men, etc. No point in drawing artificial distinctions and clinging to them just for the sake of it. I don't see what's particularly feminine about elements like Takahashi's layback or Sawyer's spirals. They're cool moves and they often are great highlights in their programs--what's not to like?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdnSkateWatcher View Post
    There have been a few, because Patrick does skate locally, and did for many years; we're in the GTA area. The one that "sticks" most in my mind was several years ago; my little guy was indeed still little, and we were fairly new to the sport. He was on an open ice session (figure skaters of all levels) and my then little guy was practicing his singles. There was this teenager on the ice that we didn't recognize that was landing these huge jumps; needless to say, my little guy got in his way and then froze in terror. Instead of getting yelled at or made to feel uncomfortable, he got a big smile, and "hey, you're looking good - keep working!" - and then several later encouraging smiles and thumbs up. It was Patrick, of course - even back then there was this joy in his skating that really fired my little guy up to want to "do what THAT guy does". I always remember that as a great example of being a positive influence for skaters ...
    Thank you for the story. It is so much like what others have said about him, a super nice guy. There are also accounts of him being helpful when nobody else has been. Since he started achieving higher success, he's been giving his time to help young skaters and other children. I'm so proud of him and so glad for Canada.

    eta Does anyone think he may unveil his new show program in this event? He did it last year at a small Canadian club.

    I just looked up the dates of World's Team Trophy and it will be held April 14-17. So I guess he wouldn't have time to prepare the new show program, especially since he said he was not going to 4CC because he wanted to conserve himself for Worlds and later to win the WTT for Canada this year. I can hardly wait to see all his new programs.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 02-22-2011 at 09:40 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Actually, I am getting my wish. Because of the COP, especially its newer updates that restrict how a skater can gain level in spins (there's a limit to how many times a level feature can be used), more and more male skaters have to show more flexibility in order to boost spin levels. For instance, we're seeing a lot more male skaters do donut spins now.

    But that's not going to stop the sport from picking up new fans. Because to an outsider or someone new to skating, a move like a Biellmann or a donut spin would not be associated with one gender or another. In the rest of society, there are certain gestures, movement, styles that are associated with one gender or another, the Biellmann, donut spins even arabesque spirals (which may be familiar from ballet, but ballet isn't mainstream any more either) just aren't part of most people's body language vocabulary. It would be a completely neutral move. The only thing that distinguishes them to a newbie is that they show flexibility. But so do many other skating moves men have always done, like Russian split jumps, sit spins, spread eagles, etc.

    It may drive some existing fans away from skating, because they don't like to see change. But then, this would be a far slower and smaller change than adopting the COP. It will sneak up on people and they will get used to it. For all your sensitivity towards men doing flexibility moves, have you been noticing more men doing donut spins and objecting to it? You're already sucked in, it's far too late!
    Yes, I've realized that CoP is helping it tremendously in this direction.

    But Russian split jump, in my understanding, was traditionally male movement in their folk dance.

    Isn't donut spin a girly spin? It's like a lady movement in ballet Swan Lake.

    I don't know if I could get used to it. At least so far, they are ugly movements to me if male skaters do them.


    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    That is a terrible and extremely specious argument against male skaters incorporating more moves done traditionally by ladies skaters.
    What did I hold against male skaters? You do not mind their doing it, you just mind my saying it. What I'm saying is the truth. You like it, that's your taste. I don't like it, this is my taste. Against vast majority in the forum, I don't like Takahashi's layback and Sawyer's skating is not my cup of tea.

    Well, enough OT from me.

  5. #35
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    But Russian split jump, in my understanding, was traditionally male movement in their folk dance.

    Isn't donut spin a girly spin? It's like a lady movement in ballet Swan Lake.
    Very true about the Russian split jump in Russian folk dance. But most people aren't familiar with Russian folk dancing. And in skating, the move is done equally by both genders now. Very, very dainty skaters like Sasha Cohen and Alissa Czisny do the Russian split all the time. No one would accuse them of being manly, at least not after they wax their mustaches.

    On the other foot, the donut spin does not exist in traditional ballet that I know of (or any modern stuff I've seen). It's definitely not in any traditional stagings of Swan Lake (have seen a few). To anyone outside skating, it's a gender neutral move.

  6. #36
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Plush had a very spiffy donut spin. I don't care which gender does it, as long as they don't have to stick their rump up in the air to get into the position to do it.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Very true about the Russian split jump in Russian folk dance. But most people aren't familiar with Russian folk dancing. And in skating, the move is done equally by both genders now. Very, very dainty skaters like Sasha Cohen and Alissa Czisny do the Russian split all the time. No one would accuse them of being manly, at least not after they wax their mustaches.
    Not to put Mathman on the spot, but I'll do it anyway - I think he mentioned that he wasn't a huge fan of girls doing the Russian split jumps. Or maybe I was misinterpreting him? I think he preferred falling leafs for girls.

  8. #38
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ I guess I do, somewhat (like a falling leaf better).

    http://michellekwan.fateback.com/ima...allingleaf.jpg

    Although I can't find fault with this eye-popper.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Split_Jump.jpg

    As for donut spins, I don't like them for men or for ladies.

    I do like a good, manly spread-eagle, though.

    http://video.lifeskate.net/images/boitano.jpg

    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2584/...cd486ed637.jpg

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ I guess I do, somewhat (like a falling leaf better).

    http://michellekwan.fateback.com/ima...allingleaf.jpg

    Although I can't find fault with this eye-popper.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Split_Jump.jpg

    As for donut spins, I don't like them for men or for ladies.

    I do like a good, manly spread-eagle, though.

    http://video.lifeskate.net/images/boitano.jpg

    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2584/...cd486ed637.jpg
    Falling leaf is so much more elegant than Russian split jump in Ladies. Although, I do agree that Russian split jump is impressive no matter who does it, men or women. I prefer the power that jump has brought to men.

    Spread-eagle is neutral to me, while donut spin, layback, and biellmann spin are so girly. I'd like to see the flexibility contest being left to the ladies. Yeah, I've just realized that I've personally drawn a line between men's movements and ladies' movements. And I've realized, first time, that this line might be one of the keys which have helped to form my preferences on men's as well as ladies' skating.

  10. #40
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I am really going to get in trouble now, but in thinking about the topic of girly men in figure skating it suddenty struck me that I can't actually think of any girly girls in the sport. Look at the thighs on those broads! (Oh, sorry. )

    Even a fem lady like Dorothy Hamill is more tomboy than dress-up tea party with Barbie and Ken.

    OK, I'll go back to tatting my doily now.

  11. #41
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Of course Mathman prefers falling leaf. It was one Michelle's trademark moves

    I prefer falling leaf too but I could watch Sasha doing a Russian split all day long. It's all good.

    I've always wondered which one is harder. In ballet, there is no question: the Russian is harder. Way harder. But I don't know how much the momentum you get in skating makes a difference.

    To me there are no spins like the layback and the scratch spin. Oh, and the camel. I guess I'm a classic sort of girl. But it all depends on how good a skater does it of course. Sasha is the only person who does the I-Spin to my liking. It's breathtaking. I don't love the Y-spin but I do love it when Alissa does it.

    With the camels, I really love it best when the skater achieves a good back position - not a sideways one. When a male skater had a good camel it's magical - their lines go on foreeeeever.
    Last edited by Layfan; 02-23-2011 at 12:42 PM.

  12. #42
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Speaking of manly spread eagles, this guy's was to die for at Nationals (Jonathan Cassar):
    http://figureskatersonline.com/news/...rn-california/

  13. #43
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ All Cassar needs to become a contender is a more reliable triple Axel.

    Speaking of manly moves, I have always regarded the triple Axel as the cherry on top of the men's figure skating sundae. Ilia Kulik was my fave, along with Todd Eldredge. Quads? Well, they are hard to do, but there is nothing particularly testosterony about spinning around in the air.

    And then again, Mao Asada was doing triple Axels at 13, so what do I know?

  14. #44
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I am really going to get in trouble now, but in thinking about the topic of girly men in figure skating it suddenty struck me that I can't actually think of any girly girls in the sport. Look at the thighs on those broads! (Oh, sorry. )

    Even a fem lady like Dorothy Hamill is more tomboy than dress-up tea party with Barbie and Ken.
    I don't disagree that any woman skating at that level are tough as nails. But I do think that in the metrics of most societies at large, including all the ones where skating is active, female skaters are considered pretty girlish, especially compared to top athletes from other sports. I mean first of all and totally obvious are the sparkly costumes and sequins and makeup. And skating favors shorter people with very compact body types (the easier to spin and rotate in the air). Very few other sports have so many stringy midgets competing. Tiny is considered dainty is considered girly.

    Then there's the fact that skating is a judged aesthetics sport. And being judged visually is considered a pretty feminine / emasculating thing in most modern culture. Refer to feminist theory 101 and male gaze and all that.

  15. #45
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Can we please get back to the real point of this thread:

    Patrick Chan's right eye does not move upward. It does not move upward.

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