Chinese Skaters' Age In Question

This situation is particularly troubling on many levels:

- Potential violation of an ISU regulation that has made numerous other talented skaters, especially girls (not so much boys), to be excluded from Junior and Senior competitions

- Does not appear to be an isolated case and may be a systematic scheming on the part of someone, whether an organization or person(s) to cheat the system

- Subjecting young girls to conditions that are more or less like circus animals, both psychologically and physically, when you pair them up with men who are so much older that they can't even grow together as partners and their sole raison d'etre for being there is to produce medal winning team - whether she likes it or not

- All the retro impact on the competition results, if proven, shouldn't other affected skating federations and skaters have a rightful claim of damage? Some can be undone but most cannot. You can invalidate certain results but others such as # of qualified spots for competitions in the past, how do you undo that and how you compensate X skater/team who were denied a spot as a result?


Personally, I believe some of these cases are misunderstandings and the discrepancy in birth date could possibly be explained by different methodologies. However, it's hard to believe how you can miscount a girl to be 15, when she is actually 12, that's just not possible. +/- 1 year is the max I think when you account for their age using both methodologies and even the month/day can differ because the Chinese do follow the lunar calendar that is about 1~2 months behind the Western calendar. If a skater is 15 by Western calendar and said is born on AD 19XX on July 8, merely a week too late to qualify for Senior World Championship, it's possible that the Lunar Calendar could produce the skater to be named as 16 AND a month or two earlier. The same person may be considered to be born a year earlier and a slightly different month/date, more or less +/- 1 month. That is the kind of case I believe there could be genuine misunderstandings, which is less serious than some of the cases presented here. No explanation could exist to make a 12 year girl into 15 however. Anyone who tries to explain that through the Lunar Calendar excuse is BS.

SkateFiguring said:

Whatever the discipline, skaters train years, often since childhood, before competing in Junior and Senior levels. Assada, Nagasu and Sotnikova didn't sit around for a year when they weren't eligible that year.

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Did Asada or Nagasu try Pair skating or did I miss something? In Pair Skating, by virtue of the regulation, many of the Pair Teams wouldn't have trained together and therefore wouldn't be a team due to the inability to compete for years. So the prevention for them to compete, in most cases, acts as an important disincentive for such team to train and continue, thereby achieving the injury prevention goal.

BackStage Barbie said:

Some teams train for quite a while together before they are eligible for International competitions. When Keauna McLaughlin and Rockne Brubaker teamed up, she was too young for the senior circuit but he was too old for the junior circuit so they trained without having the chance to compete at worlds.

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- If a team doesn't have World class potential, ISU's reasoning is that it's then recreational and people can do whatever they want in that case. Chances are, those people wouldn't be doing very dangerous tricks to endanger themselves, that is provided they actually know what they are doing. Not a very solid logic IMO but it is what it is. So not to sound too elitist, this rule mostly affects the best of the best. After all, it takes talent for someone who is under 15 to be World Championship material.

- Waiting for a year or two so that the two partners have time to grow together is actually recommended, for one thing, you develop the unison that way and "oneness". It's a completely different ball game when you pair a 20 year old man with a 10 year old girl, and hoping that in two years, she can be passed for 15 so that they train together anyway.

ImaginaryPogue said:

To give you an idea of how deep this affects things, using Sui/Han as the example (if true, of course, but I believe it to be so).

1. S/H won world juniors. Had they not been there, the podium would've been Takahashi/Tran, Kilmov/Stoblova, and Novik/Kutsenov

2. The Chinese pairs team of Yu/Jin competed at World Juniors. However, they were that mythical third team that shouldn't have been sent and consequently saw their scores/placement cancelled out. Had Sui/Han not been there, they would've seen their points rightfully given.

3. The top three nations for JGP spots were China, Japan and Russia. Without Sui/Han, they would be Japan, Russia and the United States.

4. Going further back, the medals they won on the senior GP circuit are all invalidated.

5. Going further back, the medals they won on the junior GP circuit for the past TWO seasons are invalidated. They robbed Jones/Gaskell a chance to go to the JGPF in 09/10, and Takahashi/Tran or Yankowskas/Coughlin to the senior GPF this year.

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T/T would have moved up into the GPF this season and assuming they woudn't make top three, I/M would have won the bronze. S/H nor T/T would have gone to the JR. GPF so S/K would have won.

What a mess!

wallylutz said:

Did Asada or Nagasu try Pair skating or did I miss something? In Pair Skating, by virtue of the regulation, many of the Pair Teams wouldn't have trained together and therefore wouldn't be a team due to the inability to compete for years. So the prevention for them to compete, in most cases, acts as an important disincentive for such team to train and continue, thereby achieving the injury prevention goal.

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Pairs teams too train while "waiting" to compete. The disincentive is on forming teams of large age discrepencies, not on training young pairs skaters. The ability to throw depends on the size and strength of the man/boy, which may generally but not always correlate to age.

I only see the possibility of changing from Lunar to Geogian calendar if any. Who wants to change back to Lunar dob after registrated using western calendar? If one convert from Lunar to western date, the month will change from June to July( for example), not the other way around.

These skaters were born in 80's or 90's. It doesn't make any sense that their parents could have use Lunar date for dob. Just look at any calenders sold in China, Lunar date is printed with much smaller font size below the Geogian date. I doubt even their parents use Lunar DOB.

bsfan said:

I only see the possibility of changing from Lunar to Geogian calendar if any. Who wants to change back to Lunar dob after registrated using western calendar? If one convert from Lunar to western date, the month will change from June to July( for example), not the other way around.

These skaters were born in 80's or 90's. It doesn't make any sense that their parents could have use Lunar date for dob. Just look at any calenders sold in China, Lunar date is printed with much smaller font size below the Geogian date. I doubt even their parents use Lunar DOB.

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I think it's prudent to be lenient on the possibility. You think their parents couldn't have used the Lunar Calendar but what if they in fact did? What if they are raised by grandparents instead? The possibility is endless. I don't find it hard to believe that some could use the Lunar Calendar dates when they were born. For one thing, parts of China are still fairly underdeveloped and not all of them were born in big cities. Calendars sold in China today doesn't tell us what it was like 15~20 years ago, China went through dramatic changes in that period. For all I know, things could have been done quite differently back then.

Question: If the ISU can prove there has been a systematic attempt to violate the age rule, what do you think the punishment should be and what actions/sanctions should the ISU take?

Olympia said:

Those two points were exactly what were on my mind. For goodness' sake, was any thirteen-year-old Chinese girl half as talented as Mao Asada? Yet Mao stayed home from Torino, and maybe some poor underage kid was hustled there--and was probably incapacitated by injuries by the time of the Vancouver Olympics, where she could have done well. (I'm speaking in theory about that Olympics, not about a specific Chinese child, but you get the idea.)

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Yes, hypothetically that would be true if Binshu Xu had represented China at 2006 Olympics and if her real birthdate was July 1990 (i.e., too young by a few weeks). But actually Yan Liu earned the spot and was sent, and there's no question that Liu was over 20 by that time.

In pairs skating, girls partnered with men can't possibly develop any kind of genuine skating connection.

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Oh, sometimes it works.
Here's a 15-year-old girl skating with a 26-year-old man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wS3EdZJKq0

Not a lot of connection at that point in their careers, but eventually it became a selling point for this team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1Y0ZIp9zE

What is it we react to when we see Shen and Zhao? It's their chemistry together.

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And how long did it take them to achieve that? There's only a 5-year age difference, but early in their careers, when Shen was still in her teens and Zhao early 20s, they were known for their big tricks and athleticism (and bad spins), not for their chemistry!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqPYM1C723E

Big size differences among the Soviet pairs with young teen girls were the norm at the time when Bin Yao was first starting out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGqlzcXumz0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OInB6DYemw

Of course, the ISU has changed its age rules since then, for many of the reasons mentioned in this thread.

Can you imagine some linebacker-size male skater conveying that bond with a twelve-year-old he's throwing into a quintuple toe jump? A skate to music becomes merely an exhibition of child cruelty. They might get high grades for the throws, but if I were a judge, I wouldn't award high PC's for such a performance.

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Again, less than a 5-year age difference, but big difference in size/physical maturity (and she wouldn't have been old enough under today's rules) for this championship performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5ZV_k_v8ko

wallylutz said:

In Pair Skating, by virtue of the regulation, many of the Pair Teams wouldn't have trained together and therefore wouldn't be a team due to the inability to compete for years. So the prevention for them to compete, in most cases, acts as an important disincentive for such team to train and continue, thereby achieving the injury prevention goal.

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Or, if they can't find appropriate partners closer in age, they do train together and compete at national and club-level events where ISU rules don't apply.

Or they train with partners closer in age and closer in size, which can lead to injuries based on lack of size difference if the girl is closer to full grown than the boy.

Age limits can only do so much.

But once the rules are in place, everyone needs to follow them equally and know when they are or aren't allowed to compete.

Federation suspension for two years. Relocate CoC to S. Korea for that time.

I was the first one to bring up as a point of interest the Lunar Calendar and the traditional way the Chinese tell their age. (The Lunar Calendar is also of particular interest to me in studying stock market cycles.) At the beginning of the post, I stated that I didn't know what or how the Chinese Federation did with their skater's dates of births and the related documents. I can see occasional mix-ups of within 2 years since the DOB and pertinent documents were likely not an issue when a child started training, years before her international medal possibility became evident. It is not an excuse for large discrepencies and in fact the Chinese Federation itself has never offered the Lunar Calendar as an excuse. Now it's up to them to explain the alleged underaged competitions.

As far as the objectives of age limits are concerned, ISU may have various reasons, but I don't see such rules as effective means for injury prevention. That's a matter of training, coaching and other holistic considerations.

"I think it's prudent to be lenient on the possibility. You think their parents couldn't have used the Lunar Calendar but what if they in fact did? What if they are raised by grandparents instead? The possibility is endless. I don't find it hard to believe that some could use the Lunar Calendar dates when they were born. For one thing, parts of China are still fairly underdeveloped and not all of them were born in big cities. Calendars sold in China today doesn't tell us what it was like 15~20 years ago, China went through dramatic changes in that period. For all I know, things could have been done quite differently back then. "

As I pointed out before, if by any chance they used Lunar date, when converted to western date, the month should change from June to July( roughly 1 month younger ), not the other way around. Even if one uses Lunder Calendar, there is no Lunar 1990. Lunar calendar uses names and animal zodiac. Calendars sold in China decades ago already printed western calender and put Lunar date below with small font size. As far as I don't buy that they could from humble families, there are lots of resources to convert from Lunar to Geogian. And one becomes 1m "younger" after the convertion.

ImaginaryPogue said:

Federation suspension for two years. Relocate CoC to S. Korea for that time.

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No disrespect intended towards any other nations, however, do you think that's in the best interest of the sport to impose such harsh punishment on China? If it were said, Mongolia, no one would have blinked. Considering however that 4 major ISU Championships took place in Asia this season, GPF, JW, SW, 4CC - all take place within 1~3 hour plane ride of each other, it's clear the sport is growing in Asia, including China. As for giving S. Korea a GP event, does anyone even watch skating over there when Yu Na Kim is not part of the picture?

China is right now an extremely important nation for the future of the sport of figure skating. Skimming through some Chinese skating forums, I can see the avid and growing interest and knowledge. It's also striking how little nationalism plays in their intense fandom as they are crazy about skaters worldwide, including lower tiered ones. The non-Chinese skaters have expressed how much they appreciate the supportive and enthusiastic Chinese (and other Asian) fans when they perform there. It is a big market as well as a big talent pool.

Figure skating can't afford to dampen China's involvement when its popularity is in decline in some Wetern nations previously of keen interest and deep pockets.

I say ISU should just apply whatever penalties they have in place. That would be fair and discouraging for all rule violations. The Chinese federation will be extra cautious if a few medals were revoked.

The other option is letting them get away with it, which might be the correct response.

Chinese athletes and the age controversy, what else is new?

ImaginaryPogue said:

The other option is letting them get away with it, which might be the correct response.

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Or, sentence them to community services of speaking to youths against age cheating. To show their remorse, they can also write books and cry on Oprah.

wallylutz said:

<snip>
Personally, I believe some of these cases are misunderstandings and the discrepancy in birth date could possibly be explained by different methodologies. However, it's hard to believe how you can miscount a girl to be 15, when she is actually 12, that's just not possible. +/- 1 year is the max I think when you account for their age using both methodologies and even the month/day can differ because the Chinese do follow the lunar calendar that is about 1~2 months behind the Western calendar. If a skater is 15 by Western calendar and said is born on AD 19XX on July 8, merely a week too late to qualify for Senior World Championship, it's possible that the Lunar Calendar could produce the skater to be named as 16 AND a month or two earlier. The same person may be considered to be born a year earlier and a slightly different month/date, more or less +/- 1 month. That is the kind of case I believe there could be genuine misunderstandings, which is less serious than some of the cases presented here. No explanation could exist to make a 12 year girl into 15 however. Anyone who tries to explain that through the Lunar Calendar excuse is BS.

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I said it before on the Four Continents Competition thread, but it bears repeating here. What's on a LEGAL Chinese birth certificate IS NO DIFFERENT than what is on a legal one from another country. The legal birth date is the date the baby comes out of it's mother, which is a fixed date in time according to the (yes Western solar) calendar. If a child was born on February 15, 2011 in Canada and another child was born on February 15, 2011 in China, their birth certificates will have the same date. The lunar calendar has not been used in a very long time for legal documents. Certainly within the lifetimes and beyond of any of the skaters under discussion. Whatever quaint folk customs people choose to use for their age--or have their grandmas use--that doesn't change the fixed legal birth date. The only way that can be changed is by deliberate falsification of the historical legal record, which requires cooperation from the appropriate governmental entities. So yes, trotting out the "lunar calendar" tradition is definitely a BS excuse. Skate Figuring keeps on bringing this up, apparently as a way to try to explain the discrepancy, but it is a red herring and just doesn't wash.

It's also worth a reminder that not only does the ISU set minimum ages for junior and senior competitions (and maximums for juniors), but it also establishes a fixed date in time against which each skater's birthdate can be measured for eligibility, normally July 1 of the year. There is simply no room for "misunderstanding."

ImaginaryPogue said:

Federation suspension for two years. Relocate CoC to S. Korea for that time.

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Agreed. Relocating CoC to South Korea should be fairly easy, as the primary sponsor of CoC for years has been Samsung Corporation of KOREA. Can't imagine they would have any problems getting behind a change-of-venue. You could definitely get enough Korean fans to fill an arena, and maybe even convince Yu-na to do a guest appearance (even as a host, not to skate).

On a related note, last winter when the issue of the ineligible 3rd Chinese pair team for Junior Worlds came up, I posted in the relevant thread then, that the only message the Chinese Federation would understand was a very harsh, blanket suspension of the Federation/skaters. I was roundly criticized by a very large number of other posters for being too harsh, unfair to skaters, etc. etc. Even called a troll by somebody. The message I was then trying to convey was that when dealing with the Chinese doing this sort of thing, the punishment must be absolute and draconian, otherwise there is no deterrent for change, and the Chinese Federation will continue to laugh behind everybody's back and thumb their noses at the ISU regulations, with the collusion of certain parties in the General Administration for Sport. I am completely unsurprised by these age ineligibility "revelations." Anyone who deals regularly with business and organizational matters in China knows that the Chinese will keep pushing the envelope until they receive countervailing pushback from the other side, that's just standard operating procedure here. So if one is on the other side of the table, one needs to push back sooner rather than later, harder rather than softer. The ISU either didn't get the memo on pushback (possibly) or has a different agenda/constraints (likely). I think lack of action on their part against the Chinese will indeed, be disrespectful to the other member Federations of the ISU.

bigsisjiejie said:

Anyone who deals regularly with business and organizational matters in China knows that the Chinese will keep pushing the envelope until they receive countervailing pushback from the other side, that's just standard operating procedure here. So if one is on the other side of the table, one needs to push back sooner rather than later, harder rather than softer. The ISU either didn't get the memo on this (possibly) or has a different agenda/constraints (likely).

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Whoa. So an international organization and regulatory body should have different treatments of different nations based on your perception and memo about how that nation operates? And that would be the correct agenda?

There are proper names for such actions, and such statements.

Heh. For what it's worth, I wasn't being sarcastic. We're talking practically.