Chinese Skaters' Age In Question
- Thread starter oleada
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
SkateFiguring's arguments are always presented in a very logical, level-headed manner that inspires thoughts and needed debates. I have always enjoyed reading them even when I occasionally disagreed with them. Bigsisjiejie's, however, are so often colored and emotionally charged that I found it difficult to appreciate his/her credibility fully. His/her assertions about Chinese cultures sometimes come across as a blind man that happens to touch the ear of an elephant and so claims the whole elephant as having a shape of a fan. What a shame! There is some truth to his/her observation, but to claim it as a whole or to deny observations of other aspects is simply too narrow-minded. What a shame!
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Not speaking for the Chinese federation but some other Chinese facts: Due to the One Child Policy, many Chinese families in the country do not report the births of their daughters, keeping them out of the system. They tend to surface at school age. As well, there are many casual adoptions arranged privately, especially among relatives. Many children are just passed on to the adoptive parents without registration.
China is a country where very evident ultra modern technologies and images in urban centres are mixed with invisible centuries old customs and practices completely out of the expectation or even comprehension of Westerners, especially in the rural areas. Modernization is very uneven, but there are a lot of leapfrogging as people acquire newest technologies, without old items to replace. Thus, a remote shepherd living an ancient way of life may whisk out the newest cell phone as his very first telephone. They don't start from rotary models!
Oh, to answer one question about Bigsisjiejie, she is a woman. Jiejie means big sister in Chinese, an affectionate and respectful appelation bestowed on her by the Chinese she so dispises.
China is a country where very evident ultra modern technologies and images in urban centres are mixed with invisible centuries old customs and practices completely out of the expectation or even comprehension of Westerners, especially in the rural areas. Modernization is very uneven, but there are a lot of leapfrogging as people acquire newest technologies, without old items to replace. Thus, a remote shepherd living an ancient way of life may whisk out the newest cell phone as his very first telephone. They don't start from rotary models!
Oh, to answer one question about Bigsisjiejie, she is a woman. Jiejie means big sister in Chinese, an affectionate and respectful appelation bestowed on her by the Chinese she so dispises.
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
Some Chinese automatically add one year to their age to include their life as a fetus in the mothers' stomach. And some over-report their age in order to, for example, enter the elementary school earlier and hence there exist inconsistency across documents and personal claims. Regardless of the reasons, I still think that it is more likely a systematic cheating on the federation's part. The skaters could be simply ordered from above.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
once again please remember the forum guidelines and refrain from attacking your fellow posters.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I do not agree with that at all. It's like saying, if you rob a bank and get caught, the only penalty is that you have to give back the money. This does not provide any incentive for future honesty. Quite the contraray, it just reinforces the perception that the public has of the ISU anyway -- cheating is good, only getting caught is bad.
Second, if legitimate blame for purposeful and systematic skullduggery lies with the big shots of the National Federation, then taking away a medal that some poor child thought he or she won years ago -- what does that accomplish?
Well, in 1976 the cheating got so outrageous that all judges from the Soviet Union were banned from participating in any ISU event for one year.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
I understand we want to punish the cheaters. I actually believed that they should ban the federation for a year, the way they did the Soviet Union in the 70's when their judges were awarding unfairly high marks to Soviets. However, I advocate a lighter punishment because of two things-- 1. Skating is already on thin ice 2. These skaters have no voice.
This scandal could cause even more people to turn away from skating. Sure, most of us die hard fans love it no matter what, and those of us who skate do it for the love of the sport, not because we think we will be Olympic champions.This scandal will actually hinder the sport more than help it.
These skaters, as someone pointed out, almost do what they are told because of the political system they are born into. The skaters' parents couldn't have said--no, you will not force my child to compete.
I think the best solution for this problem, and many of skating's problems is to decentralize it, and make it more like tennis. For the Olympic games, the can be selected by the NOC.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
I say fine, fire, and ban the Federation management. Hit them personally instead of the kids and future competitors. Forced revamping will follow the wholesale sacking.
This works somewhat similarly to the theory that nuclear weapons prevent major wars because the Top Dogs are equally vulnerable as the poor saps sent to the front lines for the power and profit of the rich and powerful cowards in their palaces.
This works somewhat similarly to the theory that nuclear weapons prevent major wars because the Top Dogs are equally vulnerable as the poor saps sent to the front lines for the power and profit of the rich and powerful cowards in their palaces.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
You are so funny. How about "cheated" jumps? Anyway, I am happy where the discussion is heading--focus on the punishment of the federation's misconduct and yet somehow find a way to minimize damage to the developing skating community in that country.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
LoL cheated jumps are punished--if they get caught =P
As a relatively new nation in skating, how much power does China have?
(Also--where in BC do you skate? I might visit, of all places, Sechelt)
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Country
-
Well, China has enough power in skating that it has a Grand Prix event. In the dim past, that event was Nations (or Sparkassen) Cup, held in Germany.
As a punishment for the Chinese federation, how about moving the Cup of China either to Korea or Australia or back to Germany for a while?
As a punishment for the Chinese federation, how about moving the Cup of China either to Korea or Australia or back to Germany for a while?
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
Ah yes, the Bofrost!
I'm really starting to wonder what the best punitive measure would be for this, if they are found guilty of cheating. Moving the tournament to another federation may not help skating. I thought one of the main reasons it was moved from Germany was because the German federation isn't as wealthy as the Chinese federation. Of course, if they do move it to Germany, or another federation, the Chinese could be fined for the crime--which could help pay for the GP event.
Also, as a culture, China values face-saving. If this was cheating, they will never get caught. Legitimate documents will be produced, because all the Chinese federation needs to do is to go to the government. Passports will then be produced, showing the ages they have on their ISU bios.
Maybe skating as a whole needs to evaluate the age restrictions--I'm for making them higher (17 for senior competition), and not having any overlaps (if you're skating as a junior internationally, no younger than 14, no older than 17 for all singles, and female pairs/dance; 14-19 male pairs/dance; you must be at least 17 to skate in a senior worlds). Also, even though there aren't many participating in pairs (which is why pairs are allowed to participate in both senior and junior GP), if you state your intent to compete as a junior, then you should be locked into competing as a junior. The same with seniors.
If they are not, then shouldn't we see a more random pattern?
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
Exactly. Although there are many reasons that the birth certificate of a Chinese might differ from his actual age, it is the pattern (girls over-reported and men under-reported their age) plus the sheer number of such cases that lead me to believe a gross practice of deceit on the federation's part.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I'm of Chinese ancestry and I disagree. It's very unsportsman-like conduct. If figure skating is going to be part of the Olympics, it needs to be treated as any other sport where rules and regulations need to be adhered to by all the participants.
I think it would be appropriate for the ISU and IOC to issue a penalty scale:
1 infraction = strip the medal
2 infractions = strip the medal and ban the athlete for 2 seasons.
3 infractions = strip the medal and ban the team for 1 season.
4 infractions = strip the medal and ban the team for 5 years.
As related to Olympics, any infractions at world championship would count against Olympic participation for the athlete and or team. For the Olympics, I would even say that multiple infractions within the entire national team could result in all medals for the country being taken away.
I also think that the ISU and IOC need to do more to validate ages BEFORE the competition. It's not fair to the other athletes to lose a chance to celebrate on the podium because an underage athlete is disqualified months later.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
At this point, I wont' say anything about my fellow posters but only about myself, to set the record straight:
1) I do not despise "the Chinese" as that covers an awful lot of people, most of whom are mighty fine. Anybody who says this doesn't know me. Those of you who take my comments about the situation in which the Chinese Skating Federation is at the heart of the mess, and then expand it to say I hate "all China and the Chinese", are completely off-base. Now who's being unfair?
2) More than probably any poster on this thread (and yes, that includes the ethnic overseas Chinese who have never spent much if any time in the PRC), I know more about organizational systems in China and how they work--governmental, organizational, corporate. Methods, strategies, playbooks, culture. That comes from real world experience dealing with Chinese organizations, day in and day out, on their own turf. I live it and deal with it. Daily. The PRC plays by its own system internally, and they do try to "export" their common practices to international engagements whether political, economic, sport, or whatever. In the absence of any pushback from the other parties, Chinese officials will keep on doing what they want, even if it is not perceived as "fair" to other interests, by those other interests. Put another way, you can't give your Chinese counterparty a list of rules and regulations (or a contract) and just expect Honor System and self-policing to magically work. If the ISU believes it will, they are bigger suckers than I thought.
For what it's worth, of the segment of the Chinese public that is aware of the latest allegations, quite a large number believe the Skating Federation has been playing fast and loose with many the birth dates given to the ISU. It's fairly common knowledge. It's also not the only sport this happens in.
1) I do not despise "the Chinese" as that covers an awful lot of people, most of whom are mighty fine. Anybody who says this doesn't know me. Those of you who take my comments about the situation in which the Chinese Skating Federation is at the heart of the mess, and then expand it to say I hate "all China and the Chinese", are completely off-base. Now who's being unfair?
2) More than probably any poster on this thread (and yes, that includes the ethnic overseas Chinese who have never spent much if any time in the PRC), I know more about organizational systems in China and how they work--governmental, organizational, corporate. Methods, strategies, playbooks, culture. That comes from real world experience dealing with Chinese organizations, day in and day out, on their own turf. I live it and deal with it. Daily. The PRC plays by its own system internally, and they do try to "export" their common practices to international engagements whether political, economic, sport, or whatever. In the absence of any pushback from the other parties, Chinese officials will keep on doing what they want, even if it is not perceived as "fair" to other interests, by those other interests. Put another way, you can't give your Chinese counterparty a list of rules and regulations (or a contract) and just expect Honor System and self-policing to magically work. If the ISU believes it will, they are bigger suckers than I thought.
For what it's worth, of the segment of the Chinese public that is aware of the latest allegations, quite a large number believe the Skating Federation has been playing fast and loose with many the birth dates given to the ISU. It's fairly common knowledge. It's also not the only sport this happens in.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
1. Don't you think the perception of cheating alone hurts the sport more than anything else?
2. I only know of one person who's accepting this explanation. Other than that, no one's buying it. And given the scandals (Swimmers in the mid-90s, the Sydney gymnastics team) as well as recent eyebrow raisers (getting and taking an unearned extra spot last season at World juniors, accidentally entering a skater at 4CC who wasn't eligible), I'd argue that a light punishment makes it seem like cheating's okay (judges cheat, federations cheat.... so why bother caring? Especially now with the rules such that a skate with multiple falls beats a clean one)
3. I think you've nailed the biggest difficulty: "these skaters have no voice." This is true. Why is it relevant to rule enforcement, though?
The federation controls the skaters. The ISU really has no direct control over who the federation employs. I can't see this as a plausible response
