03-14-2011, 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by colleen o'neill
Very much agree with this entire post.
03-14-2011, 11:20 AM
Weaver & Poje have not beaten Crone & Poirier in a head to head competition since the 2008 Canadians. Crone & Poirier have survived falls, stumbles, and other errors at times in that span and still always beaten Weaver & Poje every single time. They have met 4 times this season and C&P won everytime again. It is silly to even debate who should be considered "better" at this point. I take it you are a huge W&P fan of some sort who is unable to see reality. In anycase Worlds might be cancelled anyway so it is all moot.
03-14-2011, 12:11 PM
Silly, why would it be silly to debate two of the best teams in the world?? Nonsense, and its all politics yes even here in Canada , C&P have always been Skate Canada favs and it is proven every time they stumble or fall and still beat the team who was clean . Who is better at this point, IS debateable, and it is great to have 3 very special and gifted teams in Canada any of which could be on any podium at any time! The REALITY is Canada is blessed in Dance,so the point is not moot!! W&P, C&P, V&M are my favourite teams, not just bcause they are Canadian but because IMO they are the epitome of what dance should be.
03-14-2011, 01:51 PM
That is correct. V/M are clearly the best team in Canada. Indeed the world, in my opinion. No question. They are in a league of their own. The other 2 are very, very close...within a point and a half of each other. There is no clear team who is "better". Both W/P and C/P have their own strengths and weaknesses. Neither is perfect, and both have things to fix. Both teams are very young, relatively speaking in the world of ice dance. C/P may consistently finish ahead in the end, but as cotillian and Colleen noted above, perhaps not deserved in every situation. It's a good thing that both teams will continue to push each other to develop and grow, since they are so evenly matched. What is really amazing is that all 3 top Canadian teams are very different, each with their own unique style, all 3 have loads of talent, and ice dance in Canada is in tremendously good shape right through to the next Olympics. And when the next Olympics are over, perhaps P/I will be fully developed, found their own style, and ready to take their spot in the top 10 in the world.
Originally Posted by cotillion
03-25-2011, 11:17 PM
"Hold an edge and look sexy!"
It seems some have a pathetic obsession with bashing Crone + Poirier or downplaying their successes. The reality is Weaver + Poje consistently make costly mistakes in the FD that take them out of international medal contention. How is that Vanessa and Paul's fault?
03-26-2011, 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by museksk8r
I don't see a lot of Crone & Poirier bashing, or making anything Vanessa and Paul's fault! Yes, Weaver & Poje have made some costly mistakes in the FD that have taken them out of medal contention. Some of those have been self-inflicted (GP), and some are just "stuff happens" moments (4CC skirt incident). I also don't think it's C/P's fault that when Weaver & Poje do well (Nationals), they find themselves almost tied, but still a little behind. W/P and C/P can only control their own skating. It's up to judges, and whatever other unseen political or reputational forces to make the decisions. There is no blame on the skaters.
This is also reality: in so many instances over the last year and a half, W/P and C/P have finished almost tied. In many of those, W/P have made mistakes, which has left them just behind. This year, W/P have showed improvement in their ability to compete cleanly. Nationals was a great example of this, and many in the audience really thought W/P deserved the nod. Without the skirt incident, W/P would have been 2nd at 4CC. So then, in the event that W/P can put together 2 solid programs like they did at Nationals, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that W/P finish ahead of C/P at Worlds. That's not a "dis" to C/P for their skating. In fact, it has nothing to do with C/P. It's "props" to W/P for their improvement.
And this is the nicest reality: With Tessa and Scott at Worlds, Canada has 3 wonderful ice dance teams that are very likely to finish in the top 10 in the world. I cannot remember a time when this has ever been the case.
03-26-2011, 12:20 AM
- * -
I think Weaver and Poje could MAYBE beat Crone and Poirier if they can avoid any major errors. They might have beat Crone and Poirier at 4CC if they hadn't had a huge mistake in the FD. Generally, their SD is stronger.
03-26-2011, 01:51 AM
"Hold an edge and look sexy!"
I still see tons of resentment from some posters about Skate Canada's selection of C/P over W/P for the 2010 Vancouver Olympic team, whether through outright bashing or read-between-the-lines slight digs toward Vanessa and Paul. The truly pathetic moments have been certain posters likening Vanessa's appearance to a witch () and when certain posters gloriously reveled in their perception that the audiences at Canadian Nationals gave Vanessa and Paul a cold reception after their performances and during the medal ceremony. Taking your resentment out on the skaters for decisions made by the judges over who is best just really rubs me the wrong way. Many times it seems that Crone + Poirier are the Carolina Kostner of ice dance. They have been nothing but gracious competitors from what I have witnessed of them, and the sour treatment by many skating fans that is thrown their way is undeserved and unfair I believe.
Last edited by museksk8r; 03-26-2011 at 01:54 AM.
03-26-2011, 04:52 AM
Constable , Costume Police
museksk8r..You're completely right about things like calling Vanessa a witch , that kind of thing is uncalled for , but really, I haven't seen a lot of that here.
I have seen some remarks of a personal nature levelled at Kaitlyn as well , which are equally uncalled for.
I have noticed though , that there are some C/P fans ( or perhaps Ice Dance Elite fans, generally) who react vehemently to any critique of their favourites , even if it is not personal. These people often want to paint any mention of a weakness or room for improvement as some sort of cyber bullying , and even though W/P and C/P have been very close in terms of scores , they don't want to see the two couples as being closely competitive with each other at all, but act as if C/P have consistently and deservedly been many points ahead.
ETA; I haven't noticed anyone downplaying their successes.Their sucesses are on the record books . But there's no use pretending their current position is unassailable, or that there isn't another Canadian team so close behind them that if it was a horse race , it would be a photo finish.
Last edited by colleen o'neill; 03-26-2011 at 05:00 AM.
03-26-2011, 08:09 AM
Vanessa Crone is a sweetie as I found out at Skate Canada this year. I wished them luck and she gave me a big hug.....cute girl....very outgoing and charming. Paul a bit more reserved. Weaver and Poje are also very gracious from my experiences last year and both are drop dead gorgeous in person. Both teams have a lot to offer and a joy to watch. I especially loved W&P's SD this year......the best of all, and am crazy about C&P's ER FD. Both wonderful teams and a credit to Canada and skating in general.
03-26-2011, 09:26 AM
You know, prior to this season, the differences between C/P and W/P didn't matter to me. Fact is, both teams were so far behind V/M in terms of my admiration that I didn't make much of an effort. I had MAJOR issues with C/P's choreography in both the 09/10 and 08/09 seasons (their first two senior ones) - out of their four programs, I enjoyed their 20's OD and nothing else. W/P I felt were a lesser team but had two programs (their Flamenco and Phantasia in 09/10, don't know what they did in 08/09) that suited them and watching them work SO HARD in the Olympic season was pretty inspiring.
So the fact that "Eleanor Rigby" moves me like it does surprises me. The fact that W/P took a giant step back with "Moulin Rouge" disappoints me greatly. If colleen's right about the ice dance elites, I'm gonna argue it's because C/P seem to try for much more in terms of ambition and complexity that it doesn't really feel like a horse race, despite how close they are in actuality. That, and having one team consistently beating the other.
Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 03-26-2011 at 09:29 AM.
03-26-2011, 03:06 PM
Constable , Costume Police
Tessa and Scott ! Their appearance is the thing I'm anticipating most out of the whole Championships . I, too , have a much higher degree of admiration for them than any of our other Canadian couples. ( But like NorthernDancers,I'm very thrilled to think we may be able to place 3 couples in the top 10..zowies! )
03-26-2011, 08:28 PM
Hi all. Having seen C&P at Skate Canada, I want to comment that they have a wonderful melodic movement no matter what the choreography. In person both their SD and FD are mesmerizing. I'm sorry their SD hasn't been well-received, but that's the nature of Ice Dance. They also have a great ability to kick it into a higher gear after they make a mistake. I think that's why they won the 2010 FD to go to the Olympics, not because of judging favouritism or W&P skating poorly. Don't forget the latter actually won the 2010 OD over C&P. I don't think C&P will make it into the last group at World's because of their SD. The judges don't seem to get it. I expect to see both C&P and W&P in the second last group. I'm hoping to see V&M on top.
03-26-2011, 08:43 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
It's not surprising at least some of the judges don't get their SD-the judges have to figure out what the strong beat is to grade the dance, and some of the judges have gotten rather testy about that sort of thing-really noticeable at Junior Worlds in the very uneven grading of Monko & Khaliavin in the SD, where 2 judges gave them between 3 & 4 for the relevant PCS grade to point out 50 to 75% of the pattern dance was not skated with proper timing.
It's not clear what the World's judges will do with programs done to things like "Amelie" and C&P's. It's going to be interesting because I&K's SD has the same features. My guess is that they will ignore it...but if they grade as they did at Jr. Worlds, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see protests flying over the SD judging from more sides than one.
04-10-2011, 04:44 PM
IMO the problem with W/P is that although Weaver is tall, her legs are quite short, so she really doesn't have long lines. That compounds with her weak skating skills(edges and extention) make it worse. They're good doing dramatic themes or storytelling type or fast moving programs beacause their weakness can be hiden or ignored. When it comes to classic romantic and slower music that demand showing off great lines and flow, they are not in advantage. That's the difference between W/P and C/P. Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing V/M. None of C/C or W/P can lure me into buying a ticket to a show yet.