Hated their 2002 FD.Originally Posted by blue_idealist
Hated their 2002 FD.
OK strictly opinion:
L&A danced in an ugly set of costumes (a chartreuse suit coat???) to old pop music and did moves that had nothing to do with the type of dance portrayed. AFAIR, Lobacheva had been injured, and the routine did everything possible to conceal her behind Averbukh where the judges couldn't see her, and where he did extravagant moves to distract from the fact that she was not really up to snuff at the time. B&K's FD was pretty horrible too, but at least both were healthy. Worlds was in DC, 2003. It was no surprise B&K won. The performance of the competition for me was Denkova & Staviyski's Baroque OD. Tanith & Ben's Elvis stole the show and completely upstaged the L&A number in the 50's pop category. And for sheer courage, Wing & Lowe's John Lennon FD, delivered when the US had declared war on Iraq, won the prize.
Yeah, that was about it...
I've always regarded being a diva or divo as a negative quality in almost any endeavor, including ice dancing. The bad behavior signalled by the description is supposed to be allowed because the person is a star. Needless to say, treating people badly is never good, and sooner or later bites you in the butt, in any endeavor, but especially when a team is involved. The other member of the team often leaves, gives up, or just doesn't want to put up with the crap.
Now if you use the word "star quality" I think that is a plus, but it doesn't at all require being a self-entitled, loud-mouthed, demanding pain in the butt. And certainly, in a team, sometimes one of the partners may have more star quality than the other.
I completely agree with you about Denkova and Staviski's Baroque dance. I still hunt it up on YouTube when I want to see something gorgeous.
As for diva, I agree with your definitions and distinctions but assumed for this discussion that we were talking about people who could project diva-ness on the ice, not people who behaved like divas behind the scenes. Some of the on-ice divas may behave like that off the ice, but that's another story!
I read through the whole thing, and decided I wanted to sever "star quality" from "demanding & obnoxious," because I'm not sure what we are discussing here, since I don't think people have wholly agreed on an operative definition of diva.
On ice, I don't want to watch someone pretending to be a talented, but obnoxious person, any more than I wish to see them really be talented but obnoxious. Do the judges like to watch fake obnoxiousness more than I do? I have no idea; I'm not a judge.
There is something (heck a lot) to be said for being able to display a wide (as opposed to shallow) emotional range in ice dance, but displaying "demanding and obnoxious" is an ability I would rather were used sparingly, in roles like Carmen, where it's called for, and during Argentine tangos (which not coincidentally) are not my favorite dance.
Sometimes I think people conflate "diva-ishness" with sexy, and I think it is entirely possible to be sexy without appearing demanding & obnoxious. Navka did a great job of this in her "Ain't No Sunshine" OD, my favorite OD from N&K. Being sexy is not a negative
But I don't think I could decide who is a diva or not without a clearer definition. OTOH, I could give you a list of skaters I think have star quality.
Denkova/Stavisky"s Baroque Dance is what got me interested in Ice Dance and, of course, them. Absolutely, the most original dance, and not a parody of Elvis Presley. I think they call that dance: Gallop.
I still think B&K were given their title only because they promised to retire... that title meant more to them than keeping their style... they lost what was special.
Now see I happened to love that Free Dance by Bourne & Kraatz and completely thought they deserved to win the title.
I liked their FD as well, it was campy and over the top but coherent and highlighted their strengths. I do agree that they somewhat "assimilated" to what they thought the judges wanted to see when they went the DRAMA! route. But L/A had been injured and they were IMO given a catastrophic FD by Linichuk. That's why I'm always nervous when a pair changes coaches to Linichuk/Karponosov: There's always the possibility that they will be given potentially career threatening programs. K/O struggling with that African Percussion FD (if you do something that risky, make sure that it looks good right out of the gate), that "Jesus Christ Superstar" monstrosity for L/A that they even brought back in 2000 because they couldn't make any of their other FDs work.DomShabs' OD last year. OTOH, when she's inspired she can do very interesting things.
Back to the "diva" question: I would describe Klimova, Krylova, Grishuk, Anissina, Fusar-Poli, Navka as that. There's a certain glamour, star quality, fierceness and even unapproachable quality to the personas they project on the ice. Off-ice antics don't interest me.But I would say that male dancers like Dean and Peizerat, for example, have that certain quality to them as well.
I don't think being a "diva/divo" is necessary to win in Ice Dancing (anymore?). V/M and D/W for example are terrific couples who have great personalities on ice without falling into these categories, though they can do it for specific programs when required. Delobel/Shoenfelder, Denkova/Staviski, Dubreuil/Lauzon, Belbin/Agosto didn't really fit into those roles either.
That's pretty much the way I see it, and pretty much with your examples, including the two guys you cited. Like you, I don't think that off-ice behavior should enter into the considerations. One reason it's so hard for all of us to agree on who's a diva is that the word has so many connotations. To Doris and others, the word has mostly negative implications. To some of the rest of us, the word is mostly for fun.Back to the "diva" question: I would describe Klimova, Krylova, Grishuk, Anissina, Fusar-Poli, Navka as that. There's a certain glamour, star quality, fierceness and even unapproachable quality to the personas they project on the ice. Off-ice antics don't interest me.
I loved that so much! I saw it live in a gala that season and I just become huge fan of them!
As for the diva...I think that off-ice it's negative, but on-ice for some programs it's a plus, like in theatres, films, dance sometimes a diva character is "needed".
It's like entering that character...and someone could afford it and be a diva, someone just no...like a dramatic style or a funny style...
And diva for me it's something like "I'm divine and you can just admire me", more a sort of arrogance than just being sexy..
Then, of course, sometime I can use it just for fun...
I would use this adjective to Navka, Hoffmann, Domnina (referring to last year CD), and I thought that also of Bobrova this year.
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