The Diva in Ice Dance

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 17, 2011

Olympia said:
Wash your mouth out with soap, Joe! (I say this with the greatest respect.) Skating has its very own appeal, despite its parallels to dance, sport, flying, and magic. And is was us fans who came up with the term diva. The skaters are busy skating.

If we need an original term, we can say premiere patineuse absolute, which I have paralleled after premiere danseuse and prima donna assoluta. People better versed in French and Italian, feel free to correct and embroider. But for brevity, diva works just fine for me.

Mille apologies, Olympia. I'm just a crotchety old man now and not the vibrant intelligent and handsome divo I used to be.

I hope I didn't offend. Anyway, can you define Diva? :rolleye:

In its original opera form it meant a demanding virtuosa.

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 17, 2011

gmyers said:
When Shae Lynn Bourne did the whole Pasha makeover they won worlds. Maybe you meant they suffered as they lost themselves but they won their biggest prize. I wasn't really paying attention to non olympic skating at the time but that was so blatant! Seems like everyone just accepted it!

1. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it now. But yeah, that was both blatant and quite ignored.

2. I think part of the reason was the distance between the two's accomplishments, the fact that 2003 had the first application of the interim system, the fact that the competition wasn't all that great, the fact that B/K rather fluked into their win (random judges got dropped off, but statistically, L/A should've won) and that they were stalwarts finally winning the title. That, and Washington had one of the all time great skates from Shen/Zhao, along with Kwan's last world champsionship title (and her first at home, I believe), so who was in the mood to quibble?

Olympia · Feb 17, 2011

Joesitz said:
Mille apologies, Olympia. I'm just a crotchety old man now and not the vibrant intelligent and handsome divo I used to be. I hope I didn't offend. Anyway, can you define Diva? In its original opera form it meant a demanding virtuosa.

No apologies needed, Joe!

As for defining diva, I'm not sure I can. That may be part of the fun. I like your operatic definition. Certainly that describes people like Callas and (as I'm told) Kathleen Battle--and maybe the Oksanas (Gritschuk and Baiul) and Fusar-Poli in the skating world. But with most skaters, until they acquire a little worldly power, they're probably just divas on the ice. In the real world, they take their orders from the coaches, the judges, and their federation. It's a tough life being queen on the ice and worker bee everywhere else!

If we're making a list of divos, I imagine Plushenko gets a whole separate section! Well, if anyone's earned the right, it's this hardworking guy. A ten-year career at the top of the podium earns him a spot in anyone's Hall of Fame.

blue dog · Feb 17, 2011

Olympia said:
In the real world, they take their orders from the coaches, the judges, and their federation. It's a tough life being queen on the ice and worker bee everywhere else!

During the broadcast of ice dance in the 1998 olympics, CBS quipped that three of the coaches that year were the "Three Divas of Ice Dance"-- they were Tarasova, Dubova, and Linichuk. Dubova's team didn't win a medal (she was beaten by Boucher-Zazoui), but those coaches really do come to mind nowadays when I think of ice dance diva. In fact, many of the divas we've listed can trace their beginnings to a line leading to these three. Elena Ilynikh's coach, Sasha Zhulin, was trained by Natalia Dubova.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 17, 2011

Thanks Olympia and blue dog. From what you have said, I would say it's the coaches who are divas/divos - not the skaters, and Plushenko did not seem to me to be a demanding skater under Mischin. skaters in whatever division, are just too young to be courted by the royalty and wealthy.

CARA · Feb 17, 2011

After watching V/M's SD at 4CC, I must conclude, "Yep, Tessa is a Diva!" with a qualifier.

Tess has that elusive "it" factor in abundance - you just can't take your eyes off her. My guess is that Tess is smart enough to know that she can be a Diva, but is secure enough not to take it seriously. And she can plays up the role of a Diva to hilt when her character calls for it as she did with that SD program.

gmyers · Feb 17, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
1. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it now. But yeah, that was both blatant and quite ignored.

2. I think part of the reason was the distance between the two's accomplishments, the fact that 2003 had the first application of the interim system, the fact that the competition wasn't all that great, the fact that B/K rather fluked into their win (random judges got dropped off, but statistically, L/A should've won) and that they were stalwarts finally winning the title. That, and Washington had one of the all time great skates from Shen/Zhao, along with Kwan's last world champsionship title (and her first at home, I believe), so who was in the mood to quibble?

This is the most detailed article I could find on the dance competition that year

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/winter/2003-03-29-dance-final_x.htm

It was very pro canadian and "finally they win!! they were SO deserving!!!" and extremely critical of the Russians performance. Not mentioning of any Russian infludence on them which was obvious.

I want to get other opinions on the line of thinking that went something like "the russians did cheap tricks but the canadians did hydroblades"

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 17, 2011

gmyers said:
This is the most detailed article I could find on the dance competition that year

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/winter/2003-03-29-dance-final_x.htm

It was very pro canadian and "finally they win!! they were SO deserving!!!" and extremely critical of the Russians performance. Not mentioning of any Russian infludence on them which was obvious.

I want to get other opinions on the line of thinking that went something like "the russians did cheap tricks but the canadians did hydroblades"

1. It's only obvious if you want to acknowledge it. Obviously, pointing out they sacrificed every bit of their own unique personalities in order to win doesn't in fact play well with the narrative "they FINALLY WON!!!"

2. Here's another article, that does have Kraatz giving direct tribute to Morosov and Tarasova (who worked with G/P, right?)

3. I do think that of all the top Russian teams over the years, L/A were the worst. The fact is there was good reason to be criticial of their performance.

blue_idealist · Feb 17, 2011

Lobacheva and Averbukh had some good programs (like A Time For Peace 2002), but their FD in 2003 was not one of them. Adagio wasn't Bourne and Kraatz's best work, IMO, but it was better than what L&A put on the ice that competition (and that year).

Landing · Feb 18, 2011

Wow! Too many interesting thoughts to quote...

If I should define that rather profane meaning of the word when we use it in everyday speech, I’d say: Diva (oh I need a block letter here!) is an artist, mostly female, who’s trying to get extra attention by pompous, eccentric, or overly demanding behaviour. Having said that: I don’t mind Divas if their Divaishness goes together with genuine creativity and a good sense of humour, but... it can be a very bad word indeed! :laugh:

The biggest Diva I have seen on the ice? Well, Sergei Sakhnovski

In current ice dancing, it’s Nora Hoffman. You may say they are not the very top dancers but it only proves that being too Diva does no good :biggrin:

Is it all about “the Russian thing” in figure skating? I have to agree that Russian influence has brought a lot of pompousness to figure skating, maybe too much, but has it brought any particular Diva culture? I don’t think so. Diva is about the personality and not the nationality.

Will Divaishness necessarily help to win the ice dance competition? My answer is, having a Diva in your team can be an advantage as well as a disadvantage. I’d suggest to focus on skating

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 18, 2011

blue_idealist said:
Lobacheva and Averbukh had some good programs (like A Time For Peace 2002), but their FD in 2003 was not one of them. Adagio wasn't Bourne and Kraatz's best work, IMO, but it was better than what L&A put on the ice that competition (and that year).

Hated their 2002 FD.

dorispulaski · Feb 18, 2011

gmyers said:
This is the most detailed article I could find on the dance competition that year

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/winter/2003-03-29-dance-final_x.htm

It was very pro canadian and "finally they win!! they were SO deserving!!!" and extremely critical of the Russians performance. Not mentioning of any Russian infludence on them which was obvious.

I want to get other opinions on the line of thinking that went something like "the russians did cheap tricks but the canadians did hydroblades"

OK strictly opinion:

L&A danced in an ugly set of costumes (a chartreuse suit coat???) to old pop music and did moves that had nothing to do with the type of dance portrayed. AFAIR, Lobacheva had been injured, and the routine did everything possible to conceal her behind Averbukh where the judges couldn't see her, and where he did extravagant moves to distract from the fact that she was not really up to snuff at the time. B&K's FD was pretty horrible too, but at least both were healthy. Worlds was in DC, 2003. It was no surprise B&K won. The performance of the competition for me was Denkova & Staviyski's Baroque OD. Tanith & Ben's Elvis stole the show and completely upstaged the L&A number in the 50's pop category. And for sheer courage, Wing & Lowe's John Lennon FD, delivered when the US had declared war on Iraq, won the prize.

blue_idealist said:
Lobacheva and Averbukh had some good programs (like A Time For Peace 2002), but their FD in 2003 was not one of them. Adagio wasn't Bourne and Kraatz's best work, IMO, but it was better than what L&A put on the ice that competition (and that year).

Yeah, that was about it...

I've always regarded being a diva or divo as a negative quality in almost any endeavor, including ice dancing. The bad behavior signalled by the description is supposed to be allowed because the person is a star. Needless to say, treating people badly is never good, and sooner or later bites you in the butt, in any endeavor, but especially when a team is involved. The other member of the team often leaves, gives up, or just doesn't want to put up with the crap.

Now if you use the word "star quality" I think that is a plus, but it doesn't at all require being a self-entitled, loud-mouthed, demanding pain in the butt. And certainly, in a team, sometimes one of the partners may have more star quality than the other.

Olympia · Feb 19, 2011

dorispulaski said:
OK strictly opinion:

The performance of the competition for me was Denkova & Staviyski's Baroque OD.

I've always regarded being a diva or divo as a negative quality in almost any endeavor, including ice dancing. The bad behavior signalled by the description is supposed to be allowed because the person is a star. Needless to say, treating people badly is never good, and sooner or later bites you in the butt, in any endeavor, but especially when a team is involved. The other member of the team often leaves, gives up, or just doesn't want to put up with the crap.

Now if you use the word "star quality" I think that is a plus, but it doesn't at all require being a self-entitled, loud-mouthed, demanding pain in the butt. And certainly, in a team, sometimes one of the partners may have more star quality than the other.

I completely agree with you about Denkova and Staviski's Baroque dance. I still hunt it up on YouTube when I want to see something gorgeous.

As for diva, I agree with your definitions and distinctions but assumed for this discussion that we were talking about people who could project diva-ness on the ice, not people who behaved like divas behind the scenes. Some of the on-ice divas may behave like that off the ice, but that's another story!

dorispulaski · Feb 19, 2011

I read through the whole thing, and decided I wanted to sever "star quality" from "demanding & obnoxious," because I'm not sure what we are discussing here, since I don't think people have wholly agreed on an operative definition of diva.

On ice, I don't want to watch someone pretending to be a talented, but obnoxious person, any more than I wish to see them really be talented but obnoxious. Do the judges like to watch fake obnoxiousness more than I do? I have no idea; I'm not a judge.

There is something (heck a lot) to be said for being able to display a wide (as opposed to shallow) emotional range in ice dance, but displaying "demanding and obnoxious" is an ability I would rather were used sparingly, in roles like Carmen, where it's called for, and during Argentine tangos (which not coincidentally) are not my favorite dance.

Sometimes I think people conflate "diva-ishness" with sexy, and I think it is entirely possible to be sexy without appearing demanding & obnoxious. Navka did a great job of this in her "Ain't No Sunshine" OD, my favorite OD from N&K. Being sexy is not a negative :love:

But I don't think I could decide who is a diva or not without a clearer definition. OTOH, I could give you a list of skaters I think have star quality.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 19, 2011

Denkova/Stavisky"s Baroque Dance is what got me interested in Ice Dance and, of course, them. Absolutely, the most original dance, and not a parody of Elvis Presley. I think they call that dance: Gallop.

Tonichelle · Feb 19, 2011

I still think B&K were given their title only because they promised to retire... that title meant more to them than keeping their style... they lost what was special.

BackStage Barbie · Feb 19, 2011

Now see I happened to love that Free Dance by Bourne & Kraatz and completely thought they deserved to win the title.

katha · Feb 20, 2011

BackStage Barbie said:
Now see I happened to love that Free Dance by Bourne & Kraatz and completely thought they deserved to win the title.

I liked their FD as well, it was campy and over the top but coherent and highlighted their strengths. I do agree that they somewhat "assimilated" to what they thought the judges wanted to see when they went the DRAMA! route. But L/A had been injured and they were IMO given a catastrophic FD by Linichuk. That's why I'm always nervous when a pair changes coaches to Linichuk/Karponosov: There's always the possibility that they will be given potentially career threatening programs. K/O struggling with that African Percussion FD (if you do something that risky, make sure that it looks good right out of the gate), that "Jesus Christ Superstar" monstrosity for L/A that they even brought back in 2000 because they couldn't make any of their other FDs work. :bang:

DomShabs' OD last year. OTOH, when she's inspired she can do very interesting things.

Back to the "diva" question: I would describe Klimova, Krylova, Grishuk, Anissina, Fusar-Poli, Navka as that. There's a certain glamour, star quality, fierceness and even unapproachable quality to the personas they project on the ice. Off-ice antics don't interest me.

But I would say that male dancers like Dean and Peizerat, for example, have that certain quality to them as well.

I don't think being a "diva/divo" is necessary to win in Ice Dancing (anymore?). V/M and D/W for example are terrific couples who have great personalities on ice without falling into these categories, though they can do it for specific programs when required. Delobel/Shoenfelder, Denkova/Staviski, Dubreuil/Lauzon, Belbin/Agosto didn't really fit into those roles either.

Olympia · Feb 20, 2011

katha said:
Back to the "diva" question: I would describe Klimova, Krylova, Grishuk, Anissina, Fusar-Poli, Navka as that. There's a certain glamour, star quality, fierceness and even unapproachable quality to the personas they project on the ice. Off-ice antics don't interest me. But I would say that male dancers like Dean and Peizerat, for example, have that certain quality to them as well.

That's pretty much the way I see it, and pretty much with your examples, including the two guys you cited. Like you, I don't think that off-ice behavior should enter into the considerations. One reason it's so hard for all of us to agree on who's a diva is that the word has so many connotations. To Doris and others, the word has mostly negative implications. To some of the rest of us, the word is mostly for fun.

kiz_4Ever · Feb 20, 2011

dorispulaski said:
The performance of the competition for me was Denkova & Staviyski's Baroque OD.

I loved that so much! I saw it live in a gala that season and I just become huge fan of them!

As for the diva...I think that off-ice it's negative, but on-ice for some programs it's a plus, like in theatres, films, dance sometimes a diva character is "needed".
It's like entering that character...and someone could afford it and be a diva, someone just no...like a dramatic style or a funny style...
And diva for me it's something like "I'm divine and you can just admire me", more a sort of arrogance than just being sexy..

Then, of course, sometime I can use it just for fun...

I would use this adjective to Navka, Hoffmann, Domnina (referring to last year CD), and I thought that also of Bobrova this year.

The Diva in Ice Dance

Joesitz (RIP)

ImaginaryPogue

Olympia

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

Joesitz (RIP)

CARA

gmyers

ImaginaryPogue

blue_idealist

Landing

ImaginaryPogue

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Olympia

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Joesitz (RIP)

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

BackStage Barbie

katha

Olympia

kiz_4Ever

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