Ice Dance - Free Dance

[A.H.Black]

I have a question about the judges scores for Davis/White vs. the Shibutani's

I noticed that Davis/White had 8 elements but the Shibutani's had 7. Then I noticed that Davis/White had CuLi4 and RoLi4 as two separate elements while the Shibutani's had both of the same elements together as a sequence or a combination (+). Davis/White had a 4 point base value for each - equaling 8 pts. The Shibutani's had a base value of 8 points for the combination. So far they are equal. However on the GOE, Davis/White have 1.00 and 1.36 respectively - equaling 2.36 points. The Shibutani's have a total GOE for their combination of 1.70.

Did the Shibutani's lose potential GOE marks by doing these elements together? Does their GOE just reflect they didn't do these elements as well as Davis/White? Am I misunderstanding the difference?

I have been impressed with the Shibutani's technical scores.

[sequinsgalore]

I have a question about the judges scores for Davis/White vs. the Shibutani's

I noticed that Davis/White had 8 elements but the Shibutani's had 7. Then I noticed that Davis/White had CuLi4 and RoLi4 as two separate elements while the Shibutani's had both of the same elements together as a sequence or a combination (+). Davis/White had a 4 point base value for each - equaling 8 pts. The Shibutani's had a base value of 8 points for the combination. So far they are equal. However on the GOE, Davis/White have 1.00 and 1.36 respectively - equaling 2.36 points. The Shibutani's have a total GOE for their combination of 1.70.

Did the Shibutani's lose potential GOE marks by doing these elements together? Does their GOE just reflect they didn't do these elements as well as Davis/White? Am I misunderstanding the difference?

I have been impressed with the Shibutani's technical scores.

It's true the Shibutanis lost some potential GOE by doing a combinationlift. Davis/White admitted that this was reasoning for doing only short lifts in stead. Personally I find combinationslift to be more awe-inspiring, and hopefully teams will get higher GOE from the judges because of this than they would otherwise. Davis/White always get high GOE's on lift, so here it was smart decision to do only short lifts.

[SkateFiguring]

Throwing out the highest and lowest, D/W gets 2s in GOE for RoLI4 and all 3s and a 2 for their RoLI4, whereas the Shibs receive 2s for their CulI4+RolI4. So it's understandable that D/W's total is higher. However, if all 2s in GOE translates into 1 point for BV of 4, should the same GOE translate into 2 points for BV of 8? IOW, instead of 2.36 vs 1.70, shouldn't it be 2.36 vs 2.00?

[ImaginaryPogue]

colleen, some comments on your comments

I'm taking the explanation at face value ..There will be many of us who know ,first hand, that when you're recovering from an injury or surgery, it's so , so easy to put too much strain on, or injure some other muscle, tendon ,etc. Other parts of your body automatically try to take up the slack , and when you feel this you must stop ,or risk a further separate injury. So I'm going to look forward to World's and hope that's enough time for Tessa to progress beyond that stage. The 30 seconds or so that we saw of their FD was spot on ballroom Latin ( brilliantly brought on to the ice) and I long to see the whole thing. ( Can they move, or what ?)

I want to take the explanation at face value, I really do. But I remember how much they hid Virtue's problems during the Olympic season. I love how natural they seem doing this, though. Even if Virtue doesn't quite nail the gyrating sexuality of the piece she really is awesome and Scott of course is the best male dancer in the world.

I'm still not getting a real tango feeling from Meryl and Charlie, and I want to , so I'll just trust them to keep polishing.( I thought I noticed a couple of teensy bobbles , too ..but it was 4;30 AM ,and there were some less than great camera angles ).

I think in the end it's the difference between drama and passion. Drama is action and events - and this dance is jampacked with action. Those devilishly complicated lifts. The linking steps. That spin. But passion is feeling/emotions. They've never been the most emotive or communicative skaters. They wow and impress with their athletic expression (and indeed, it's astonishing just how much power they generate and how good they really are) but in terms of generating those wells of feeling... they really do come up short. It's a more noticeable here than in "Phantom of the Opera" or "Samson and Delilah" because tango requires it to really have oomph. Additionally, because the program is so difficult it's so clearly effort-full, which leaves even less room for natural emotion. In the end, I'm still awestruck but what they do, but yeah, they miss that tango feeling.

The Shibs ! I just knew they could do what they did ( come up right behind D/W ) by just doing what they do.. ( if you take my meaning ) It was , once again , delightful. Airy above, crisp below and smooth all over.

I look forward to their progress. They have such joy in their dance. I do think they could get more power, but this dance might just disguise that.

W/P ?..Andrew has to get a grip, and not be vulnerable to the unexpected, if they hope to establish themselves at World's. They finally had the the kind of cushion they deserve after their SD ( this hasn't always been the case , IMO ), only to see a medal slip away by another narrow margin , and this time it was truly in their power to avoid.( Please do it, guys! )

C/P didn't skate particularly well , but well enough. They,too, had a couple of bobbles.. (bumping together, having to reach..that kind of thing ).They were obviously not happy with their marks, but who knows whether that was just due to knowing mistakes they'd made , or if they thought they were undermarked. Anyway, they can't have been pleased to be passed by the Shibs.

Ah, the Canadian number 2s. So this will be the fourth head-to-head competition this season between C/P and W/P, and C/P have won every time. I think that the last time C/P lost to W/P was when C/P were still competing as juniors. Honestly, I really don't know what to think.

I admire C/P's SD more than most. I like how quickly they go into their first element (so little set-up time, a gorgeous position and great strength move) in how late in the program their last element is (again, right before the ending) but the consequence to that is that their middle minutes are a little sparse and due to the repetitive nature of the music.. well, despite my appreciation it clearly doesn't work. And while I adore their FD, they haven't gotten to the levle of cleanliness to really make it work. I expect them to work massively hard, but maybe a coaching switch is in order? Particularly if the Shibs have truly passed them (one event doesn't make a new world order)

As for W/P.... I really enjoy watching Poje; he has wonderful presentation skills even if he tends to cede the spotlight. But it does seem he's the one who makes the most errors/bobbles/stumbles.

I really do hope one or the other really steps it up at worlds. My money's on C/P.

I'm really appreciating C/Z's program more and more. They may have skated it better at US Nat.s ( can't remember clearly )..but I find it more appealing every time I see it.

I'll have to come back.

More and more I'm convinced this is a great program. Huge leap in what they did before. Cannot wait for them at worlds.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Throwing out the highest and lowest, D/W gets 2s in GOE for RoLI4 and all 3s and a 2 for their RoLI4, whereas the Shibs receive 2s for their CulI4+RolI4. So it's understandable that D/W's total is higher. However, if all 2s in GOE translates into 1 point for BV of 4, should the same GOE translate into 2 points for BV of 8? IOW, instead of 2.36 vs 1.70, shouldn't it be 2.36 vs 2.00?

This is a quirk. Four short lifts w/ same GOE is less than three lifts (two short, one long). So if things are close, yes - that can make the difference. Yes, the ISU should look at that. But the way the rules are written now, combination lifts are slightly underscorsed comparitively. Like sequinsgalore, I do hope they ISU looks at this next season.

[dorispulaski]

IP, have you watched the HD version of the FD, from the Canadian broadcast? It makes a huge difference, because the Taipai feed was as much as 20 seconds out of synch, causing D&W to look like they ended 15 or 20 seconds behind their music and when the interview came, Meryl's words were heard when Charlie was talking, and vice versa (rather funny). Having the music synched right makes a big difference, especially when you're trying to get the musical feeling of the piece.

Here's the Canadian coverage of the FD:
D&W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WipUUXmzyTk

Tracy Wilson is finding their tango expression far better here than at the beginning of the season, and I find it significantly better than at US Nationals.

Shibs
http://www.youtube.com/user/aplysia0.../2/s-DO12zKTk0

Crone /Poirier's FD exists in the Canadian coverage, but not Weaver & Poje's. Neither is on youtube (or I have not yet been able to find them).

Also, I have not been able to find any coverage of C&Z's FD, and I'm very fond of it

[yunafan1860]

Watching Davis White FD gives me the weirdest feeling - that I'm actually seeing the two characters from Phantom of the Opera taking a break from their original exhausting program and dancing a tango.
I may need to check my electrodes after dinner.

[museksk8r]

I think this proves that Vanessa & Paul can relate very well to one another and with an audience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1KXo3ZcC40

[Ravensque]

I think this proves that Vanessa & Paul can relate very well to one another and with an audience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1KXo3ZcC40

That is a totally charming gala number.......I can't think of how they could relate to one another any more than they already do in that number..........btw.....I love her dress, very elegant. Good luck to them a Worlds. They deserve respect.

[SkateFiguring]

Isn't Eleanor Rigby about being lonely and not relating?

Criticisms of them not relating in that dance should be taken as compliments.

[dorispulaski]

Actually, according to Paul Poirier, their dance is not about anything, it is an abstract piece. Their costumes emulate the British flag. So the dance is not about not relating either. Or relating. Which makes my head spin a bit, but it's OK. There's nothing that says your dance has to be about anything at all.

[SkateFiguring]

There's nothing that says your dance has to be about anything at all.

Still it would be and if the opposite emotion of the song is portrayed in the dance.

[A.H.Black]

Thanks for the responses to my question about judges marks and also for the links to videos.

[ImaginaryPogue]

IP, have you watched the HD version of the FD, from the Canadian broadcast? It makes a huge difference, because the Taipai feed was as much as 20 seconds out of synch, causing D&W to look like they ended 15 or 20 seconds behind their music and when the interview came, Meryl's words were heard when Charlie was talking, and vice versa (rather funny). Having the music synched right makes a big difference, especially when you're trying to get the musical feeling of the piece.

Here's the Canadian coverage of the FD:
D&W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WipUUXmzyTk

Tracy Wilson is finding their tango expression far better here than at the beginning of the season, and I find it significantly better than at US Nationals.

I did. They definitely HAVE improved their tango expression. As they grow more comfortable with the difficulty (which has basically been occuring with every event) they grow better at the expression. It's just not quite there yet.

[yunafan1860]

Tessa and Scott spotted at the Ladies FS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rZipaWaVRs