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Thread: Men's Long Program

  1. #256
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    The fact is, he still beat Kozuka in this competition and we know Kozuka is Top 5 material at Worlds and the current Japanese Champion. Would any of the 2011 US World Team member be able to beat Kozuka at this competition in lieu of Jeremy? I doubt the answer can be a convincing yes. Chances are, many people would doubt that.
    Still Kozuka had to bomb completly for Jeremy to beat him. Personally, while he was clean in his SP, he was tenative and he knew it. Jeremy has the potential to run away with this. In this competition he did not.

    In addition, I never claimed that any of the 2011 World Team members could beat Kozuka. I'm sorry, but some whine that it was on 0.19, I see it that was still 0.19. You're either on on the podium or you're not.

    True, he was far from perfect though if the selection criteria for World Team is perfection, then none of them would fit either because they too have a lot of small issues. Jeremy may not be a medal threat but don't you think the standard you are using here is overly strict? Would Bradley, Dornbush and Miner be medal threats? Frankly, it's quite unthinkable, even less than Jeremy.
    I put Jeremy to a higher standard because quite frankly, his amazing programs and talent far surpass that of the top three men. Everyone expected him to walk away with this even if he was not perfect. And quite frankly, I get the sense that Jeremy even had the belief that a sub-par program would sneak him in because of that reputation he has.
    No, I don't expect those three to be medal threats, but I still don't think its excusable to send someone when they have time and again made silly mistakes (and they know better).


    The bottom line is do you want someone who at his worst, would still be Top 12 in the World or do you want some people, at their worst, could possibly not even qualify after the SP at Worlds? I think the answer is obvious.
    I don't think it's so obvious. Given the caliber of men who are at worlds, I expect all three to qualify for the FS. Even Bradley with an injured foot and bad programs still finished 18th and helped the U.S. get three direct entries.

    Adam and Jeremy KNOW that they are better, have more talent, better PCS. People can go on and on that Jeremy did well here at 4CC and this proves he deserved to be on the World team, but he needed to have that performance at Nationals.


    ETA: You don't understand how much it pains me to say this. I am still very much a Jeremy fan, and it just is so sad for me to see Jeremy fall short of what I know he can do. He can do a eight-triple program with a quad with beautiful artistry. I know it. Heck we've seen it (at Skate Canada/GPF) I have spent the last few years just holding my breath hoping that he would have that breakthrough at the Worlds championship). At this point, I think he needs the tough love from the federation. I hope this will put a fire under him, like it did for Alissa.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 02-19-2011 at 10:11 PM.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Still Kozuka had to bomb completly for Jeremy to beat him.
    It wasn't his best, but Kozuka definitely did not bomb this competition, and it's not like Abbott was flawless either. Regardless of the results, it is rather clear that both these men would be contenders to land on a World podium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I put Jeremy to a higher standard because quite frankly, his amazing programs and talent far surpass that of the top three men. Everyone expected him to walk away with this even if he was not perfect. And quite frankly, I get the sense that Jeremy even had the belief that a sub-par program would sneak him in because of that reputation he has.
    No, I don't expect those three to be medal threats, but I still don't think its excusable to send someone when they have time and again made silly mistakes (and they know better).
    Those "silly mistakes" outscored the season high score of Ross Miner by over 25 pts. Our World team could bring in better results if Abbott was on it, but unfortunately the US follows a close-minded system to select teams. I find it illogical to ignore all international scores when deciding which skaters are best equipped to represent the US in international competition. It's not that Miner will do poorly... It's just not the strongest team we could be sending.

  3. #258
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gold12345 View Post
    Those "silly mistakes" outscored the season high score of Ross Miner by over 25 pts. Our World team could bring in better results if Abbott was on it, but unfortunately the US follows a close-minded system to select teams. I find it illogical to ignore all international scores when deciding which skaters are best equipped to represent the US in international competition. It's not that Miner will do poorly... It's just not the strongest team we could be sending.
    I don't believe past results are always an indication of success.

    For one thing Miner made it really clear that his efforts at the GP series were far from his best. If you see the thread on The Edge, there's an article that talks about how he did a lot of work after the GP series because he knew that he could be better. And his performance at nationals was the refection of that work.

    And to be honest, if you want to use past results to determine the future (as you seem to obsess over with Minor), then perhaps, one could argue that Florent and Tomas are a lot closer to the podium than Jeremy is because both of them had better season's best scores. HECK, Richard Dornbush had a better Season's best score... on the JGPF!

    As we have seen some folks are late-season skaters...perhaps Miner is one of them.


    ETA: Sorry for going off-topic folks. If we want more discussion on this (though I think this has been discussed to death, we probably need to do another thread...)

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by gold12345 View Post
    Our World team could bring in better results if Abbott was on it, but unfortunately the US follows a close-minded system to select teams.
    I don't think it is closed-minded. In fact, I think you could just as well use that characterization for the view that the only thing that counts is sending the best team to worlds. The USFSA has broader objectives than just that.

    I find it illogical to ignore all international scores when deciding which skaters are best equipped to represent the US in international competition. It's not that Miner will do poorly... It's just not the strongest team we could be sending.
    The reason that it seems illogical is because of the premise -- that the only business of the USFSA is to send the best team to worlds. If you re-examine that premise, it won't look illogical at all. (JMO.)

  5. #260
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    I hope Dornbush, Miner and Bradley all make the top 10 at worlds to prove the naysayers wrong. And I'm not an Abbott hater. I'm actually a fan of him but I believe others deserve their chances too.

    Wasn't Bradley 4th at 4CC last year?

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Aw, I'd be sad for Patrick if he didn't make the worlds podium. And I thought you were supposed to be a Brian Joubert fan.
    I think the podium's going to be the same as it was last year: Chan, Joubert, and Takahashi. Chan's probably going to be first but I'm not sure the order of 2 and 3.

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Main rival for what, 9th place (which is what 31 year old broken bodied Plushenko will be battling for if by some miracle he gets reinstated for Sochi).
    Sure. If they start from 9th and cancel the first 8th.

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I think the podium's going to be the same as it was last year: Chan, Joubert, and Takahashi.

  9. #264
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    The one competition selection of worlds by the USFS has to be rethought. We not only lost Abbot but Mirai as well. The "best team" is just not the same as the strongest team. Conspiracy theory or not. Send the STRONGEST.

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    The one competition selection of worlds by the USFS has to be rethought. We not only lost Abbot but Mirai as well. The "best team" is just not the same as the strongest team. Conspiracy theory or not. Send the STRONGEST.
    I think we are focusing too much on "conspiracy theories."

    To me, there are two conflicting points of view.

    1. The USFSA should send the strongest and most competitive team to worlds, by any means necessary.

    2. The spots on the Worlds team should be decided on the basis of an open and inclusive competition.

    IMHO, principle 2 is more important than principle 1.

    Other countries laugh at us, feeling that principle number 2 is merely quaint and naive. *shrug* OK.

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    The one competition selection of worlds by the USFS has to be rethought. We not only lost Abbot but Mirai as well. The "best team" is just not the same as the strongest team. Conspiracy theory or not. Send the STRONGEST.
    I'm totally against this, which I reiterate once more, no politics, let the US Nationals decide it, as it always has been.

    The skaters know the deal, same as everybody else, you finish 1-2 (or 3 if apropos) and you go to Worlds. You don't, you stay home, simple as that. They know the score, the pressure, et al. If they can't handle it here, then most likely they can't handle it at Worlds either. Tough luck, come back better prepared and ready to rock next year. No coddling.

  12. #267
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadine View Post
    I'm totally against this, which I reiterate once more, no politics, let the US Nationals decide it, as it always has been.

    The skaters know the deal, same as everybody else, you finish 1-2 (or 3 if apropos) and you go to Worlds. You don't, you stay home, simple as that. They know the score, the pressure, et al. If they can't handle it here, then most likely they can't handle it at Worlds either. Tough luck, come back better prepared and ready to rock next year. No coddling.
    The conspiracy theory is there, no doubt about it, but it applies to both methods. A crooked committee or a crooked threatening of the judges. Pick your choice. And don't forget the luck in placing on the podium in one competition.

    BTW, I do think it perks up the lackluster Nationals to be more exciting if there is a big prize like the World's Team for the one competition method. Maybe that is why some fans prefer to have the Nationals be the only decision maker.

  13. #268
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Aw, I'd be sad for Patrick if he didn't make the worlds podium. And I thought you were supposed to be a Brian Joubert fan.

    lol, I was??? I dont know how this came out. I m not a fan,not with the traditional meaning at least.When i was first writing here I would say i was quite negative about him, but one of the great things of this forum is that it can make you look a skater differently, for various reasons! And then i saw him live and he is cool and charismatic. I want him to do well and his fans to be happy And yes it would be nice if Chan , ABott IF , Oda, Joub ,Tomas and Brentsson IF (:() were on podium but the podium has three steps and I thought a japanese sweep will be great, Dai if this is his last season,Kozu at laaast and Hanyu for his first worlds, but anyway this was a dream I said loud, Hanyu is not going at Worlds anyway

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I think the podium's going to be the same as it was last year: Chan, Joubert, and Takahashi. Chan's probably going to be first but I'm not sure the order of 2 and 3.
    Joubert isnt going to be on the podium. There are atleast 6 guys I would favor over him this year.

  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    The conspiracy theory is there, no doubt about it, but it applies to both methods. A crooked committee or a crooked threatening of the judges. Pick your choice. And don't forget the luck in placing on the podium in one competition.
    If there was some conspiracy theory, don't you think that Abbott and/or Rippon would have placed higher than Miner and Dornbush at Nationals? Why would they "hold up" two unknowns or "hold down" the two guys that secured three spots last year? Your conspiracy theory with regard to men makes NO sense.

    As for the ladies, well, there are 2 for 3 spots and the two that are going to Worlds skated better at Nationals (aye, Mirai).

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