Ladies - Long Program | Page 26 | Golden Skate

Ladies - Long Program

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes, some other countries do. And sometimes, as in France, they get sued for not having well defined rules.

And they cut the heart out of some skaters who believe there is no way they can win in that country, no matter how they skate, and they retire far too early, or figure out how to skate for...say Italy (Contesti, formerly French) or as here in the USA back in the 1970's for Netherlands (World Champ DeLeeuw, formerly American). So the US does not do that any more. As MM says, the goal of the USFS is not to win medals, particularly. It is an organization for all the skaters, including the little kids learning basic skills, the Adult Skaters, the synchro teams, etc.

However, YMMV.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Yes, some other countries do. And sometimes, as in France, they get sued for not having well defined rules.

And they cut the heart out of some skaters who believe there is no way they can win in that country, no matter how they skate, and they retire far too early, or figure out how to skate for...say Italy (Contesti, formerly French) or as here in the USA back in the 1970's for Netherlands (World Champ DeLeeuw, formerly American). So the US does not do that any more. As MM says, the goal of the USFS is not to win medals, particularly. It is an organization for all the skaters, including the little kids learning basic skills, the Adult Skaters, the synchro teams, etc.

However, YMMV.

I never thought about that view of the USFSA, Doris; I like it. Taking the top three (or, alas top two this year) is both clear and fair, certainly. Though at this moment it does give a bit of a twinge as we watch the talented Mirai and realize she'll be staying home for the rest of the season.

I don't know the ins and outs of skating rules back in the days of Dianne de Leeuw. Was she shafted by having someone else put on a worlds team ahead of her? I sort of assumed she skated for the Netherlands because the U.S. ladies' field was so crowded in those days, and in the Netherlands a skater of her caliber was virtually assured a Worlds berth--the way Lily Lee skated for South Korea. Golly, I haven't thought about De Leeuw for years. Her Olympics (and John Curry's) was the first one I watched, and I remember liking her style.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Certainly the field was crowded, but if Dianne were good enough to be a World Champion, she should have not felt the need to flee, if she believed she had a chance in the US. Heck, at one point Yamaguchi was trying to skate for Japan (which had some excellent skaters itself). It didn't work out, but why did she feel the need to even look? I don't know, but I haven't seen that urge to flee the US from a really talented skater in a long time. It could just be chance...or not.

In the 1970s and 1980s there were significant "winners win & losers lose" type rumors, but no internet to verify whether they were true or not. There was a belief that if Carlo Fassi were not coaching you that you were doomed, for example, at one point. Rumors...but as a fan, you had no idea if the rumors were garbage or not.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
One thing for sure, Four Continents has come a long way. Just a few years ago we could hardly find a skater who was willing to go. Now -- thanks largely to Japan suddenly taking it seriously -- it is the biggest game in town.
 

zizi31

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I don't think you should criticize Mao and Miki. You don't know what they eat. And I don't find their appearance "sad" - to me Mao looks perfect, and Mirai is above my ideal weight. And the three of them were "twins" once upon a time because Mirai was thinner then. She has gained weight this season.
 

hikki

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Country
Japan
One thing for sure, Four Continents has come a long way. Just a few years ago we could hardly find a skater who was willing to go. Now -- thanks largely to Japan suddenly taking it seriously -- it is the biggest game in town.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Continents_Championships#Ladies
The 1st Four Continents medalists were: Tatiana Malinina, Amber Corwin and Angela Nikodinov. Not to take away anything from these medalists in 1999 but FC indeed has come a long way with both Japan and USA sending their A team!

Miki has one other option to up her point level the 3Z-3L. While she has made strides in her non-jump elements and putting forth consistent programs. We all know that she can do this combo. Her 3Z-2L is so big already, that she could probably add another rotation, and she does it in practice.

ETA: This does wreck havoc on her current format though. By having the 3Z-3L, she would have a repeated jump with the loop. So she would have to do something else instead of the solo 3T (since she does a 2A+3T later in the program.) Does anyone know the status of her flip? I really haven't quite figured out why she took that jump out this year.
I'm probably wasting my breath, but I'd really like her to do this...

Miki does a lot of jump combinations in practices- The Japanese discussion boards refer to this as "pull a Morozov" i.e. a skater shows off all sorts of tricks in practices only to 'play smart' in the competition, like Shizuka with 3s/3t/3l in Torino.

At 4CC, Miki was seen landing 3s/3l (You can see Mao's 3f/3l < attempts earlier in the clip too):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6npdMC9o8E#t=1m20s

I'd love to see her do a -3lp combo but you're right, she'd have to fill a jumping pass with an extra triple, the only one left being the flip.
She seems to have given up on the flip after a fall in the short in a GP event (forgot which). After working on her lips, sadly the consistency went down.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
One thing for sure, Four Continents has come a long way. Just a few years ago we could hardly find a skater who was willing to go. Now -- thanks largely to Japan suddenly taking it seriously -- it is the biggest game in town.

I don't think it's that far yet. Just last year the event was skipped by almost all of the top skaters, so as not to interpret their preparations for the Olympics. The same can not be said of Europeans.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
No matter how well Rachel skates she isn't going to ever be a World champion. She will be lucky to be in the top 6 unless lots of other skaters falter.

Hmm.....I wouldn't say that. you NEVER, NEVER, EVER know.

Extremely unlikely? Yes.

Do I have a better chance of winning a thousand bucks? Perhaps.

Is it impossible? no
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Miki has one other option to up her point level, the 3Z-3L.

Miki has many options aside from just that.

She could put a Triple Flip in the program.
She could put a Quad Salchow in the program.
She could put a Quad Salchow and Triple Flip in the program.
She could put either of those jumps into the program, along with another 2Axel-3Toe combination.
She could put BOTH of those jumps into the program, along with another 2Axel-3Toe combination.

Instead, the judges give her undeserved +GOE and PCS for her programs, so she sticks with her safe jump layout.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
I notice Miki had some problems connecting steps preceding her flip. That might gave her some problem with timing. She was very tentative going into them the few times she tried this season. In the LP, she could just do a flip without any transition. I think she should be able to land it.
 

MrScroogeMcDuck

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
OK, I'm ready to be ripped to shreds, so I'm going to comment on the world team debate.

How about something like this?

1.If there is one spot available for worlds, then the spot for the United States will go to the winner of Nationals.

2.If there are two spots available for worlds, then the first spot will go to the winner of Nationals and the second spot will go the American that did the best* in the Grand Prix. If the winner of Nationals and the person that did the best in the Grand Prix are the same, then the second spot will go to the silver medalist at Nationals.

3. If there are three spots available for worlds, then the first spot will go to the winner of Nationals, the second spot will go to the American that did the best in the Grand Prix, and the third spot will go to the silver medalist at the US Nationals. If the winner of Nationals and the person that did the best in the Grand Prix are the same, then the second spot will go to the silver medalist at Nationals, and the third spot will go to the bronze medalist at Nationals.

[*Best will be defined as the American that placed the highest in the Grand Prix Final or, if no American qualified for the Grand Prix final, the person that was ranked the highest according to the ISU and its rules on points, tiebreakers, etc., in qualifying events.]


This would keep the idea that the the winner of Nationals should always go to Worlds, but would also provide a little bit of protection for the US in the uncommon situation where the US has two or three spots, yet the person with the highest Grand Prix finish has an uncharacteristically bad time at Nationals and doesn't end up in the top two or three.

If we applied the above to this year, the teams would be:

Men: Bradley, Abbott, and Dornbush
Ladies: Czisny and Flatt
Pairs: Yankowskas/Coughlin, Evora/Ladwig
Ice dancing: Davis/White, Shibutanis, Chock/Zuerlein

Notice there is no difference except for the men's team.

[And just to be clear... Since it has been tradition to go 1,2,3 for worlds, I strongly support Miner being on the world team and think he earned his spot. This is about the future, not changing common understanding in the middle of the game, which I think is incredibly unfair and sends a bad message to the skaters.]
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
OK, I'm ready to be ripped to shreds, so I'm going to comment on the world team debate.

How about something like this?

1.If there is one spot available for worlds, then the spot for the United States will go to the winner of Nationals.

2.If there are two spots available for worlds, then the first spot will go to the winner of Nationals and the second spot will go the American that did the best* in the Grand Prix. If the winner of Nationals and the person that did the best in the Grand Prix are the same, then the second spot will go to the silver medalist at Nationals.

3. If there are three spots available for worlds, then the first spot will go to the winner of Nationals, the second spot will go to the American that did the best in the Grand Prix, and the third spot will go to the silver medalist at the US Nationals. If the winner of Nationals and the person that did the best in the Grand Prix are the same, then the second spot will go to the silver medalist at Nationals, and the third spot will go to the bronze medalist at Nationals.

[*Best will be defined as the American that placed the highest in the Grand Prix Final or, if no American qualified for the Grand Prix final, the person that was ranked the highest according to the ISU and its rules on points, tiebreakers, etc., in qualifying events.]


This would keep the idea that the the winner of Nationals should always go to Worlds, but would also provide a little bit of protection for the US in the uncommon situation where the US has two or three spots, yet the person with the highest Grand Prix finish has an uncharacteristically bad time at Nationals and doesn't end up in the top two or three.

If we applied the above to this year, the teams would be:

Men: Bradley, Abbott, and Dornbush
Ladies: Czisny and Flatt
Pairs: Yankowskas/Coughlin, Evora/Ladwig
Ice dancing: Davis/White, Shibutanis, Chock/Zuerlein

Notice there is no difference except for the men's team.

[And just to be clear... Since it has been tradition to go 1,2,3 for worlds, I strongly support Miner being on the world team and think he earned his spot. This is about the future, not changing common understanding in the middle of the game, which I think is incredibly unfair and sends a bad message to the skaters.]

Great suggestion, I'm actually going to start a new thread on this on The Edge so we can get back to the thread topic on hand.
 

MrScroogeMcDuck

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Upon review, I have found a slight flaw. I'll think about it some more and see if if it can't be tweaked to become more reasonable. Oh, and yes, a new thread would be great. :biggrin:
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
As much as i want Mirai to go to Worlds after her 4CC performance she just didn't get it done at Nationals. She didn't even skate like she wanted to win and not only didn't she win she blew a chance to go to Tokyo. Plus we all know when she gets a lead or is near the top she freezes. Who's to say she wouldn't do what she did last year at Worlds? She needs to prove to everyone including herself that she can be consistent.
 

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Mao Asada: She skated very well, the edge call on the Triple Lutz was a surprise to me because from my angle, she took off from the Outside Edge as I was paying attention to the edge of that jump in particular. Perhaps she switched to Inside Edge just prior to take-off, .

.

She did switch her edge like 1 second before she take off.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Does anyone know why very few ladies are doing triple-triple combo this year? I am just curious.

Maybe the two 2a rule has something to do it? Doing a 3-3 usually allows one to add another 2a, but this season you can't do a third 2a so there's no real point in doing a 3-3 and a 2a-3t. Miki has issues with 3f so by taking it out of the SP and FS she has a better chance at going clean, she also constructed her FS intelligently with 5 jumping passes after the halfway point including two big point getting combos the 2a-3t and 2a-2lo-2lo, so it sort of makes up for not having 7 triples.

Mirai was working on 3lz-3t but I think her time off hurt her progress on that combo so she decided not to try it in her programs this year. Also she already has two lutzes and two toes in her FS so putting in a 3-3 would require a change in jump layout and either make her give up her 2a-3t combo or do the 3s which she seems to struggle with a bit.

Mao was working on 3lo-3lo early in the season but I think she could never really get it fully rotated. Maybe she'll bring back the 3f-3lo, but she can't in the SP unless she changes her jump out of steps from 3lo to 3lz.

Alissa I know was trying 3t-3t a season or two back, but I don't think she's ever done it in competition. Also, given her success this year, I think it's more important that she skate her current layout cleanly, even though it's a bit conservative with 6 triples, two of them toes, two combos in the first half, and only one 2a. But her spins make up for her jump layout and I sort of doubt she could pull off a 3-3 anyway, and her 2a is one of her worst jumps so I don't see a 2a-3t coming from her either.

Cynthia I think could definitely be capable of 3t-3t, maybe even 3lo-3t. I feel like if her SP layout was 3t-3t and 3lo she'd have more consistency with it and it would be more competitive than her current 3lz-2t (which is inconsistent) and 3t.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
As much as i want Mirai to go to Worlds after her 4CC performance she just didn't get it done at Nationals. She didn't even skate like she wanted to win and not only didn't she win she blew a chance to go to Tokyo. Plus we all know when she gets a lead or is near the top she freezes. Who's to say she wouldn't do what she did last year at Worlds? She needs to prove to everyone including herself that she can be consistent.
And Alissa did at 4cc. No?
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Alissa I know was trying 3t-3t a season or two back, but I don't think she's ever done it in competition. Also, given her success this year, I think it's more important that she skate her current layout cleanly, even though it's a bit conservative with 6 triples, two of them toes, two combos in the first half, and only one 2a. But her spins make up for her jump layout and I sort of doubt she could pull off a 3-3 anyway, and her 2a is one of her worst jumps so I don't see a 2a-3t coming from her either.

She doesn't need it. She's like a Lepisto or a Korpi in that she can gain points from her non-jump elements so she doesn't need fancy jumps to compete.
 

Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
I agree that Alissa doesn't need to go for the 3-3. For those who may not remember, she did 3Lz+3T in her FS at 2005 Skate America -- link to a video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hY4GwLcnaY

Great suggestion, I'm actually going to start a new thread on this on The Edge so we can get back to the thread topic on hand.
And here's the link to the "How should the USFSA determine future world teams?" discussion in The Edge: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...should-the-USFSA-determine-future-world-teams
 
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kalle

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 28, 2003
Cynthia I think could definitely be capable of 3t-3t, maybe even 3lo-3t. I feel like if her SP layout was 3t-3t and 3lo she'd have more consistency with it and it would be more competitive than her current 3lz-2t (which is inconsistent) and 3t.[/QUOTE]

I would love for Cynthia to try a 3t-3t, she has the most amazing 3t and so much flow coming out of it :love:
 
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