And if Shizuka had done the long program she did in practice which regularly had 7 triples and 2 triple-triple combos she would have blown Sasha away no matter what Sasha had done. As it was Shizuka landed only 5 clean triples, the same # as Sasha, and still won easily by 8 points and nearly 9 points in the long program, besting Sasha in points for GOE of jumps (of course unless the judges were blind), non jump elements, and PCS all.
I do agree Shizuka is not an all time skater, but neither is Sasha of course, and Shizuka as a World and Olympic Champion will be remembered as the better skater between the two.
This thread should be titled "What do you want to see at Worlds Past......Ladies'.
If Sasha had skated clean..... Well one could say if Shizuka and Slutskaya had skated their best Sasha wouldnt have had a hope of winning anyway, which would be true. Yeah Sasha skating clean which she has never done in her life anyway, and combined with all of Shizuka doing a very simple program with a major mistake herself, Slutskaya skating horribly, and Kwan and Asada both out of the Olympics, could have won with all those events somehow combining. Somehow I dont see much meaning in that.
She isnt capable of it as you admit yourself, so what does it matter. Shizuka was in fact more likely to have skated much better than she did than Sasha. Shizuka's practice performances in Turin or her 2004 Worlds performance (coupled with now having a "name" unlike her undermarked 2004 Worlds LP) would have beaten a fantasy never seen before clean Sasha probably by an even bigger margin than she actually won by.I agree that Shizuka had the superior jumping technique - there is no question about that given that Sasha seemed incapable of ever putting together two clean programs in one competition.
Which is why Sasha was outscored in all those categories in the long program in Turin. Shizuka's basic skating quality is far superior to Sasha as far as edges, flow, speed, power, ice coverage too, in addition to her jumping. Even if all you said were true Shizuka has no real weakness in her skating to the extent of Sasha's jumping and her basic skating. She is very strong in all of jumps, spins, footwork, spirals, musicality, choreography, stroking, which a couple of those Sasha is only mediocre in, regardless how great she is at some of them.However, Sasha's spins, spirals, etc and all round general grace and artistry were far superior to those of Shizuka.
Sasha was never winning the 2005 Worlds. Irina was on her home ice, was dominant that year was skating the best she had ever had going into Worlds, and had all the momentum. Sasha skated the closest to a clean competition she ever has done, and Irina botched 2 elements in her short program and had a triple jump discounted in the long and still won by a big 2 fall or so margin. She would have even had a better chance of winning the 2003 Worlds than 2005 (not that I think she could have won the 2003 Worlds either).Hence, had Sasha had a better jumping technique and temperament, and had she been able to skate clean throughout a competition, in my opinion she could have been a triple world champion (2004,05, and 06) and Olympic champion (06).
2004 Worlds she would have won had she skated better but only due to Shizuka's lack of name at the time and all of Kwan's problems at those Worlds.
2006 Worlds was a gimme since the field was a joke but she still blew it.
Maybe the fact she doesnt have better technique just means she is not super talented in all areas needed to be a champion. She might have alot of talent for spins, spirals, pretty positions, and other things but not much talent for jumping or basic skating ability.Basically, the avoidable (with better technique and temperament) falls and mistakes she made in each of those competitions cost her every one of those titles.
Last edited by pangtongfan; 03-09-2011 at 12:45 PM.
Blast from the past again between Sasha and Shizuka??? Let see...
Sasha lost (-4 on fall on 3Lz, -2.5+ on Flip, + not completing her intended 3+2+2 combo -1.2 + -1.6) total = 9.3? points ... so her LP score will be 125 ish
Shizuka 2Lo (lost -3.7) ...LP score will be 129 ish (IMO her spiral should have score +3 GOE as it has the best speed, edges and ice coverage..)
Sasha v Shizuka
Interesting debate - We all have our own views and would make an interesting subject for a poll sometime
Needless to say, one of the biggest draws to this years Worlds will be the return of Yu-Na. The big unknown here is how well she will skate after a year off and how good a job Peter Oppegard is doing as her coach. It is going to be exciting getting the answers to these two questions which hopefully will turn out to be "great" and "great".
Well, let's not forget Yu-Na Kim herself relies on such 2A+2T+2Lo combo in her own FS. 3 Jump combo that includes two double jumps is not as easy you think. Aesthetic of these small jumps is a matter of personal taste so I can't tell you what you like or not like but being able to do a 3 jump combo well often comes at a cost in terms of GOE because GOE on such combo is evaluated based on the 3 jumps performed as a single Element. Even if you did the Triple really well but messed up on the Doubles, and it happens more often than you think, your GOE will likely be negative and that could worth more than the base value of the double jumps performed. God forbid you also get downgraded or UR on the Doubles, that could really kill your GOE. So in my opinion, adding double jumps after a Triple is not exactly free points. In fact, they often lower the GOE compared to stand alone Triple jumps because it is harder to maintain flow and good control in all 3 jumps vs. just 1 jump.I'm not just talking about practically, I think it's stupid and ugly to see someone only adding on 2Lo's or 2T's in their combinations. If someone is already doing two 3T's and then adds three 2T's to her combinations, that's five of the same type of jump (*cough* Lepisto.) People complained about YuNa because her scores were high, but stylistically I find the above scenario worse. And if they thought that doing what YuNa did was so easy, why didn't more ladies do it? (hint: because most weren't doing 3-3's as successfully/reliably. Or, Mirai did the same last season, but she had to do two relatively difficult combos: 2A-3T and 3Lo-2A seq.)
Well, what you say could not possibly lead to combo being nullified. Since Double Lo or T are not subject to Zayak rule, pop is irrelevant. Someone who say, got downgrade on a Triple Axel will not be considered as having repeated a Double Axel and will not have the element voided as repeated jump or extra element either. I think you are getting really side tracked in your thought process, 99% of 3/3 jump combo or sequence has to involve either a Triple Loop or Triple Toe. Has Yu-Na ever done a 3/3 without using either Triple? I don't think so. The only successful 3/3 without either a Toe or Loop this year is 3Lz/3 Salchow and it was not even performed at an ISU event.What happens if you pop or downgrade a planned 3Lo or 3T and possibly get a combo nullified? Don't plan combos with all the same double jumps, and/or consider doing a sequence combination without 3Lo or 3T.
I understand you and many other Yu-Na fans are unhappy that rule changes seem to be working against Yu-Na Kim. Would it make you feel better if I say I concur? The cards are stacked against her but I would say it was not done on purpose. Many of the changes are welcome changes, like not being able to do three 2A. I personally agree that jump combo should receive the 10% bonus but it got voted down, what can I do?
If Yu-Na skate clean, she will still be hard to beat. If she doesn't skate clean however, the rules changes probably won't matter very much either way.
wallylutz, I think you are misunderstanding me a little bit but this will be my last post on this subject because a) my criticism won't change the rules, and b) I feel bad for side-tracking this thread further in this direction while it gets sidetracked in another (Sasha vs. Shizuka.)
I am sorry for picking on her considering her recent injury and withdrawal from this year's Worlds, but here is Laura Lepisto's FS jump layout from last year:
Clearly Lepisto is capable of doing 3Lo's, but for some reason she only adds toe-loops as the second/third jumps in her combos. I find that odd.