What do you want to see at Worlds ...Ladies

[oksanafan]

No offense to Shizuka, she was the best thing about the 06 Olympics but she was lucky to win that one much less another one. She did a great job at the Olympics but she didn't exactly put her name in the books like some of the other ladies.

Had Sasha not fallen twice in her LP at the 06 Olympics, she would have been Olympic champion instead of Shizuka. She led after the SP and she had a better LP than Shizuka. Sasha was also 21 at that point and very much at her peak as a skater. When one looks back on her career, that was her big opportunity and it was a big opportunity missed - not 2010. Even if she had made the 2010 Olympics, there was little likelihood of her winning given the form Kim and Mao were in.

[yangjie]

I didnt even mention Yuna in my post, where is your word comes out from "do not just see Yu-na"?
Dont even bother telling me how to respect people i dont think you know me at all.

at least, i am better than you because i have never ' giggled' while a skater spinning.

[pangtongfan]

And if Shizuka had done the long program she did in practice which regularly had 7 triples and 2 triple-triple combos she would have blown Sasha away no matter what Sasha had done. As it was Shizuka landed only 5 clean triples, the same # as Sasha, and still won easily by 8 points and nearly 9 points in the long program, besting Sasha in points for GOE of jumps (of course unless the judges were blind), non jump elements, and PCS all.

I do agree Shizuka is not an all time skater, but neither is Sasha of course, and Shizuka as a World and Olympic Champion will be remembered as the better skater between the two.

[Olympia]

And if Shizuka had done the long program she did in practice which regularly had 7 triples and 2 triple-triple combos she would have blown Sasha away no matter what Sasha had done. As it was Shizuka landed only 5 clean triples, the same # as Sasha, and still won easily by 8 points and nearly 9 points in the long program, besting Sasha in points for GOE of jumps (of course unless the judges were blind), non jump elements, and PCS all.

I do agree Shizuka is not an all time skater, but neither is Sasha of course, and Shizuka as a World and Olympic Champion will be remembered as the better skater between the two.

Shizuka may not be an "all-time skater," as you say, but there's something unique about her longevity and skills. I'm not going to say it right, so I'll just throw it out there, but the fact that she has retained triple-triples into her late twenties proves something about the superiority of her technique, and that alone makes her a great skater to me. Then there's her special grace, partly born of her height (and that's unusual in itself, because taller ladies tend to have less stable jumps), and partly her flexibility (oh, that sublime Ina Bauer). She's more subtle and less overtly spectacular than some other skaters of her era, but even so she hits the top of almost every scale you can grade her on. I'll never get tired of watching her.

[oksanafan]

And if Shizuka had done the long program she did in practice which regularly had 7 triples and 2 triple-triple combos she would have blown Sasha away no matter what Sasha had done. As it was Shizuka landed only 5 clean triples, the same # as Sasha, and still won easily by 8 points and nearly 9 points in the long program, besting Sasha in points for GOE of jumps (of course unless the judges were blind), non jump elements, and PCS all.

I do agree Shizuka is not an all time skater, but neither is Sasha of course, and Shizuka as a World and Olympic Champion will be remembered as the better skater between the two.

Given that Sasha fell twice, a 9 point lead in the LP was not that great. She would have more than made good the difference had she skated clean. I agree that Shizuka had the superior jumping technique - there is no question about that given that Sasha seemed incapable of ever putting together two clean programs in one competition. However, Sasha's spins, spirals, etc and all round general grace and artistry were far superior to those of Shizuka. Hence, had Sasha had a better jumping technique and temperament, and had she been able to skate clean throughout a competition, in my opinion she could have been a triple world champion (2004,05, and 06) and Olympic champion (06). Basically, the avoidable (with better technique and temperament) falls and mistakes she made in each of those competitions cost her every one of those titles. She had the potential to be one of the all time greats, but she just couldn't for one reason or another translate that potential into major titles. A real shame. I think temperament played a major part in that. But you see that a lot. I mean, Kostner and Czisny would have achieved a great deal more in the sport had they had a better temperament - although Kostners height does her no favours at all

[SkateFiguring]

This thread should be titled "What do you want to see at Worlds Past......Ladies'.

[os168]

This thread should be titled "What do you want to see at Worlds Past......Ladies'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi_UirW7y8c
It is stick figuring.

[pangtongfan]

Given that Sasha fell twice, a 9 point lead in the LP was not that great. She would have more than made good the difference had she skated clean.

Given that the program Shizuka doubled a planned triple and landed the same # of clean triples as Sasha (5) losing by 8-9 points is not that great. Given that Shizuka's performance was worth 10-15 points less than her regular practice performances in Turin, losing by 9 points with 2 falls is not that great.

If Sasha had skated clean..... Well one could say if Shizuka and Slutskaya had skated their best Sasha wouldnt have had a hope of winning anyway, which would be true. Yeah Sasha skating clean which she has never done in her life anyway, and combined with all of Shizuka doing a very simple program with a major mistake herself, Slutskaya skating horribly, and Kwan and Asada both out of the Olympics, could have won with all those events somehow combining. Somehow I dont see much meaning in that.

I agree that Shizuka had the superior jumping technique - there is no question about that given that Sasha seemed incapable of ever putting together two clean programs in one competition.

She isnt capable of it as you admit yourself, so what does it matter. Shizuka was in fact more likely to have skated much better than she did than Sasha. Shizuka's practice performances in Turin or her 2004 Worlds performance (coupled with now having a "name" unlike her undermarked 2004 Worlds LP) would have beaten a fantasy never seen before clean Sasha probably by an even bigger margin than she actually won by.

However, Sasha's spins, spirals, etc and all round general grace and artistry were far superior to those of Shizuka.

Which is why Sasha was outscored in all those categories in the long program in Turin. Shizuka's basic skating quality is far superior to Sasha as far as edges, flow, speed, power, ice coverage too, in addition to her jumping. Even if all you said were true Shizuka has no real weakness in her skating to the extent of Sasha's jumping and her basic skating. She is very strong in all of jumps, spins, footwork, spirals, musicality, choreography, stroking, which a couple of those Sasha is only mediocre in, regardless how great she is at some of them.

Hence, had Sasha had a better jumping technique and temperament, and had she been able to skate clean throughout a competition, in my opinion she could have been a triple world champion (2004,05, and 06) and Olympic champion (06).

Sasha was never winning the 2005 Worlds. Irina was on her home ice, was dominant that year was skating the best she had ever had going into Worlds, and had all the momentum. Sasha skated the closest to a clean competition she ever has done, and Irina botched 2 elements in her short program and had a triple jump discounted in the long and still won by a big 2 fall or so margin. She would have even had a better chance of winning the 2003 Worlds than 2005 (not that I think she could have won the 2003 Worlds either).

2004 Worlds she would have won had she skated better but only due to Shizuka's lack of name at the time and all of Kwan's problems at those Worlds.

2006 Worlds was a gimme since the field was a joke but she still blew it.

Basically, the avoidable (with better technique and temperament) falls and mistakes she made in each of those competitions cost her every one of those titles.

Maybe the fact she doesnt have better technique just means she is not super talented in all areas needed to be a champion. She might have alot of talent for spins, spirals, pretty positions, and other things but not much talent for jumping or basic skating ability.

[wonderlen3000]

Blast from the past again between Sasha and Shizuka??? Let see...

Sasha lost (-4 on fall on 3Lz, -2.5+ on Flip, + not completing her intended 3+2+2 combo -1.2 + -1.6) total = 9.3? points ... so her LP score will be 125 ish

Shizuka 2Lo (lost -3.7) ...LP score will be 129 ish (IMO her spiral should have score +3 GOE as it has the best speed, edges and ice coverage..)

[pangtongfan]

Blast from the past again between Sasha and Shizuka??? Let see...

Sasha lost (-4 on fall on 3Lz, -2.5+ on Flip, + not completing her intended 3+2+2 combo -1.2 + -1.6) total = 9.3? points ... so her LP score will be 125 ish

Shizuka 2Lo (lost -3.7) ...LP score will be 129 ish (IMO her spiral should have score +3 GOE as it has the best speed, edges and ice coverage..)

Not to mention that would have been with Sasha having 1 more triple, and Shizuka not doing the triple-triple combos she could easily do which Sasha was not even capable of. Had Shizuka felt like she needed atleast 1 triple-triple to be secure in beating a spectacular Sasha it would have been easy for her to do one, much easier than it would have been for Sasha to have skated clean if by some miracle she pulled that off. She had been doing 2 per program no practice in practices in Turin.

[oksanafan]

Sasha v Shizuka


Interesting debate - We all have our own views and would make an interesting subject for a poll sometime

[oksanafan]

Sasha v Shizuka


Interesting debate - We all have our own views and would make an interesting subject for a poll sometime

Poll set up - will be interesting

[jatale]

Needless to say, one of the biggest draws to this years Worlds will be the return of Yu-Na. The big unknown here is how well she will skate after a year off and how good a job Peter Oppegard is doing as her coach. It is going to be exciting getting the answers to these two questions which hopefully will turn out to be "great" and "great".

[wallylutz]

You didn't really add much to my original post. I already addressed the point about freeing up a jumping pass. If YuNa didn't want to put in a 3Lo, what could she use in the extra jumping slot she would gain by doing the 3-3? She isn't getting directly rewarded for it, that is my gripe. It is contingent on her adding yet another skill on top of her 3-3. An analogy would be: a skater who does a 4T would not gain any extra base value on it over the 3A unless he incorporated all the other triple jumps. There have been skaters in the past who left out the 3A and did the 4T. So should their 4T get only a base value that is equivalent to the 3A, or should the 4T be rewarded in its own right?

Easy, Yu-Na Kim just needs to have a Triple Loop in her program, then she can reap the full benefits of having an additional jumping pass. Considering how junior skaters all have to do the Triple Loop as the required jump, are you saying the Olympic Champion can't learn to do something that even juniors are doing?

I'm not just talking about practically, I think it's stupid and ugly to see someone only adding on 2Lo's or 2T's in their combinations. If someone is already doing two 3T's and then adds three 2T's to her combinations, that's five of the same type of jump (*cough* Lepisto.) People complained about YuNa because her scores were high, but stylistically I find the above scenario worse. And if they thought that doing what YuNa did was so easy, why didn't more ladies do it? (hint: because most weren't doing 3-3's as successfully/reliably. Or, Mirai did the same last season, but she had to do two relatively difficult combos: 2A-3T and 3Lo-2A seq.)

Well, let's not forget Yu-Na Kim herself relies on such 2A+2T+2Lo combo in her own FS. 3 Jump combo that includes two double jumps is not as easy you think. Aesthetic of these small jumps is a matter of personal taste so I can't tell you what you like or not like but being able to do a 3 jump combo well often comes at a cost in terms of GOE because GOE on such combo is evaluated based on the 3 jumps performed as a single Element. Even if you did the Triple really well but messed up on the Doubles, and it happens more often than you think, your GOE will likely be negative and that could worth more than the base value of the double jumps performed. God forbid you also get downgraded or UR on the Doubles, that could really kill your GOE. So in my opinion, adding double jumps after a Triple is not exactly free points. In fact, they often lower the GOE compared to stand alone Triple jumps because it is harder to maintain flow and good control in all 3 jumps vs. just 1 jump.

What happens if you pop or downgrade a planned 3Lo or 3T and possibly get a combo nullified? Don't plan combos with all the same double jumps, and/or consider doing a sequence combination without 3Lo or 3T.

Well, what you say could not possibly lead to combo being nullified. Since Double Lo or T are not subject to Zayak rule, pop is irrelevant. Someone who say, got downgrade on a Triple Axel will not be considered as having repeated a Double Axel and will not have the element voided as repeated jump or extra element either. I think you are getting really side tracked in your thought process, 99% of 3/3 jump combo or sequence has to involve either a Triple Loop or Triple Toe. Has Yu-Na ever done a 3/3 without using either Triple? I don't think so. The only successful 3/3 without either a Toe or Loop this year is 3Lz/3 Salchow and it was not even performed at an ISU event.


I understand you and many other Yu-Na fans are unhappy that rule changes seem to be working against Yu-Na Kim. Would it make you feel better if I say I concur? The cards are stacked against her but I would say it was not done on purpose. Many of the changes are welcome changes, like not being able to do three 2A. I personally agree that jump combo should receive the 10% bonus but it got voted down, what can I do?

If Yu-Na skate clean, she will still be hard to beat. If she doesn't skate clean however, the rules changes probably won't matter very much either way.

[prettykeys]

wallylutz, I think you are misunderstanding me a little bit but this will be my last post on this subject because a) my criticism won't change the rules, and b) I feel bad for side-tracking this thread further in this direction while it gets sidetracked in another (Sasha vs. Shizuka.)

I am sorry for picking on her considering her recent injury and withdrawal from this year's Worlds, but here is Laura Lepisto's FS jump layout from last year:

3T+3T
3Lz
3Lo+2T
2A
3Lo
2A
2S+2T+2T

Clearly Lepisto is capable of doing 3Lo's, but for some reason she only adds toe-loops as the second/third jumps in her combos. I find that odd.

Easy, Yu-Na Kim just needs to have a Triple Loop in her program, then she can reap the full benefits of having an additional jumping pass. Considering how junior skaters all have to do the Triple Loop as the required jump, are you saying the Olympic Champion can't learn to do something that even juniors are doing?

Of course not; she was seen practicing it even in the 2009 season when she took it out of her LP. The point is, though, is that she may not be ready or willing to incorporate the 3Lo into her programs at this time yet. To reiterate the points before me, dismantling her 3-3 would be one way she could increase her scoring potential while keeping her current choice of jumps, which is silly.

Well, let's not forget Yu-Na Kim herself relies on such 2A+2T+2Lo combo in her own FS.

Good, that's exactly my point. I'm glad YuNa likes to mix it up, and I think it's a very pretty combo. Prettier than a 2A+2T+2T or 2A+2Lo+2Lo would be. I never said 3-jump combos of any kind were easy. I don't know why my posts are being misunderstood in that way.

Someone who say, got downgrade on a Triple Axel will not be considered as having repeated a Double Axel and will not have the element voided as repeated jump or extra element either.

First, I never believed that double jumps are subject to the Zayak rule, but said I think they should be. Second, there's a thought for YuNa. She should just declare her solo Axel to be an Intended 3Axel and just do the 2Axel and say it was merely popped. That's totally in line with the IJS's philosophy of scoring jumps as they are called/"intended" (e.g. "wrong-edge 3Lutzes" which are practically 3Flips evade the Zayak Rule )