Wonderlen's statement was neither wrong nor misleading.
Wonderlen's point was that a skater cannot get +3 GOE on most triple jumps any more. For instance, on a tirple Lutz, last year a skater could get up to 3 extra points in GOE, but this year the most that skater can earn is 2.1 extra points.
You "corrected" that to, the judges can still hit +++ on their keyboard, but that translates into only 2.1 points instead of 3. That is mere semantic pedantry, in my opinion. I disagree that casual fans or anyone else would be confused by the content of Wonderlen's statement.
I disagree that Wonderlen's statement was false, I disagree that it was "necessary" to debunk anything, and I certainly disagree that there was "no other way."
If they judged the Sport on a Scale of 0-10 for each element, the GoEs would be totally unnecessary. Isn't that the way of Judged Sports?
If they allowed Free Skating instead of Long Program, the PCs would change dramatically.
Not really. Most judged sports do have marks for difficulty and for execution.
Entry into an element; 2points
Rotations of an element (jumps or spins); 2points
Exit (landings) from an element; 2 points
and 4 points to compare the overall element with the text book definition.
Except not really. Nothing you write takes into account that a triple axel is harder than a double toe. Both have an entry, multiple rotations, exist and a comparison to text book definition.
Why 0-10? Why not 0-5? Because if it helps you think of it that way, you can argue that right now, elements are marked on a scale of 0 (-3 GOE) to 6 (+3 GOE) with a technical difficulty mark added on (base value).
Here is the said person's original post:
Point #1 : Does the new rule eliminate +3 GOE as a execution bonus value added to an element (as opposed to +++)?The new rule eliminate +3 GOE. Right now the highest +GOE is 2, so assuming Yuna did her 3Lz+3T the same quality as before (this is the jump Kim rackup the +GOE mark the most on average), the most she can is +2. Factor that with eliminating, highest and lowest GOE, plus two random GOE, skaters will get +1.8 most. None of the female skater so far get +2 GOE that i can think of.
Fact: wonderlan3000 made no mention of it being specific to any jump or element in particular. However, the new rule does not eliminate the possibility of adding +3.00 in value to a very well executed Element. Such bonus is possible on a Level 4 Step Sequence, Choreography Step/Spiral Sequence, Triple Axel and all types of Quadruple jumps.
Mathman's claim: "Wonderlen's point was that a skater cannot get +3 GOE on most triple jumps any more."
Reply: Unless you are a mind reader, and maybe you are, it is not possible to know wonderland3000 was referring to "most triple jumps". Since the said poster never said it is specific to most triple jumps or anything for that matter. Even in the context of ladies, jumps are not the only elements that they can score +3.00 GOE. As mentioned above, several other elements qualify as well and ladies have been getting some +3 GOE from the judges for these elements, notably ChSp. I choose to believe that most people are not mind readers and semantics do matter in writing, when someone writes things like this, you have to be careful about your wording so not to confuse people. You want to disagree with that, fine by me, I have nothing more to say on this regard.
Point #2: The most GOE Yu Na Kim can possibly get on a Triple Lutz+Triple Toe combo is +2.00 today, but after factoring random elimination of 2 scores, the most she can get is +1.80.
Fact: In theory, a skater can get a maximum of +2.10 GOE for a Triple Lutz+Triple Toe combo today. It's not +2.00 unless someone wants to make a claim that mathematically, 2.00 = 2.10. :sheesh: Also, random elimination of 2 scores no longer apply. Even if it still does, it would not lower the ceiling to just +1.80 GOE either. For example, assuming in theory, Kim received eight +++ signs for her 3Lz+3T combo and one ++ sign at the 2011 World Championship. Random elimination would eliminate two marks, but the highest & lowest drop will surely take out the single ++ sign if the latter was not already randomly withdrawn. The net result is still +2.10 in GOE. Random elimination does not create an artificial ceiling to the GOE received by the skater, it never did and certainly can't one year after it was eliminated.
Mathman's claim: "but this year the most that skater can earn is 2.1 extra points.
You "corrected" that to, the judges can still hit +++ on their keyboard, but that translates into only 2.1 points instead of 3. That is mere semantic pedantry, in my opinion. I disagree that casual fans or anyone else would be confused by the content of Wonderlen's statement."
Reply: Since the said poster never stated +2.10 in the post, it surely was very confusing because +++ on keyboard = +2.10, not +2.00. If wonderlan3000 had used +2.10 in the post, it would have been clearer. The later mention of +1.80 is even more confusing since it was mathematically wrong and telling people of a ceiling that never existed, not in the past and not today. You honestly don't find this confusing??? Then perhaps, you can explain how did he come up with the +1.80 after random elimination of 2 scores and that's the most a skater can get. The reality is the quoted statement contains so many factually incorrect references and numbers that goes beyond just some mere "semantic pedantry".
Last from Mathman: "I disagree that Wonderlen's statement was false"
Boy, after the dissection above, you have a lot of courage for willing to defend a statement that contains so many factually false claims. But you should know better because you are a knowledgeable skating fan. Like I said, please explain to us how you get to the +1.80 GOE number using the Triple Lutz+Triple Toe combo under 2011 rules. If you can't, you just shoot yourself in the foot and that's the end of the story.
Last edited by wallylutz; 03-03-2011 at 12:08 PM. Reason: typo
Kostner's best over Czisny's best? Very debatable. Their ISU personal bests are only 4 pts apart (in favor of Carolina) but Alissa's is 4 months ago, Carolina's 3 years ago. Of course if you're comparing Kostner's best v. Czisny's worst....
Also, Flatt's PB is far above Korpi's. Lepisto is another story, but I'm not sure she's likely to skate her best at this Worlds (much as I'd love to see it).
Last edited by Spun Silver; 03-03-2011 at 02:27 PM.
Wallylutz, what I really think about the whole topic is that it is possible to correct errors of little consequence (2.0 instead of 2.1) with charity and collegiality.
Another way combo jumps are unfairly scored under the COP is the fact that the GOE values are the same as they would be for a solo jump. For instance, let's say a skater does a beautiful tano 3lutz/tano 2toe combo (Adam Rippon for instance). The most he could get on GOE for that combo is +2.1. If he did them separately, he could get a combined GOE boost of +2.7. This is even worse for 3/3 combos, where the max GOE for the 3/3 is +2.1, while separately the two jumps can get +4.2.
But wait, isn't this mitigated by the fact that negative GOE is also halved? In some cases, yes. Let's say a skater does a 3</2< jump combo of some kind, again the max negative GOE is -2.1 vs. -2.7 separately. However, there are other cases where negative GOE is made worse by the fact that the jumps are done in combo.
For instance, if a skater does a 3lutz/3loop< (Miki Ando for instance), and the 3lutz is beautiful and huge while the 3loop gets an UR call, that skater may get a GOE of -1.4. If that skater did the two jumps separately with the same UR call on the 3loop, though, that skater would still have the negative GOE of -1.4 on the loop, but a +GOE on the 3lutz that may make up for it.
Or in another case, a skater splats on the second jump of a combo, s/he then gets a -2.1, and wipes out any +GOE s/he may have gotten for landing that first jump, since a negative GOE is mandatory for falls.
The COP system makes absolutely no distinction between the difficulty of the jumps combined in base value, and even penalizes skaters for doing more difficult combinations. For instance, a 2axel/3toe and then a 3lutz is worth exactly as much as a 3lutz/3toe followed by a 2axel in base value. But in GOE, it's a different story. The GOE scale used is based on the hardest jump attempted. So for a 2a/3toe, the max GOE is +2.1. Same for the solo 3lutz. Same for the 3lutz/3toe, but a 2axel only gets a max GOE of +1.5.
So yes, all else being equal, doing a 2axel/3toe then a 3lutz will earn more points than the more difficult jump layout of a 3lutz/3toe followed by a 2axel. This is patently ridiculous, but it is one of the reasons why we're seeing so freaking many 2axel/3toe combos now. Not only is it easier for skaters to maximize their jumping passes by doing a 3toe after a 2axel, but it increases the overall +GOE they can get.
Last edited by Serious Business; 03-03-2011 at 05:20 PM.
Just a suggestion as it appears that way in other sports, and Entry, Rotation, Landing could change to 3 points each, with 1 point to determine whether it included footwork into the take off, counter rotation if required, and perfectly landed jumps.Why 0-10? Why not 0-5? Because if it helps you think of it that way, you can argue that right now, elements are marked on a scale of 0 (-3 GOE) to 6 (+3 GOE) with a technical difficulty mark added on (base value).
As you may be aware, I would like to dump the SP for an individual element contest without music. But those Artristy fans would never by that, and give the Free Skate back to the skaters.