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Thread: What do you want to see at Worlds ...Ladies

  1. #196
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Not true, incentive for doing 3-3 is to free up jumping passes. With additional jumping passes, you have the potential to do more high value jumps, thus increasing the BV of the program overall. If [YuNa] breaks up the 3T, she would have to include it elsewhere, which she could have used to do something else that will add more value to her content. Although to fully take advantage of this, it would be best to have complete sets of Triple jumps.
    You didn't really add much to my original post. I already addressed the point about freeing up a jumping pass. If YuNa didn't want to put in a 3Lo, what could she use in the extra jumping slot she would gain by doing the 3-3? She isn't getting directly rewarded for it, that is my gripe. It is contingent on her adding yet another skill on top of her 3-3. An analogy would be: a skater who does a 4T would not gain any extra base value on it over the 3A unless he incorporated all the other triple jumps. There have been skaters in the past who left out the 3A and did the 4T. So should their 4T get only a base value that is equivalent to the 3A, or should the 4T be rewarded in its own right?

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Your concern is easily mitigated by the fact that jump combos are limited to only 3 per Free Program. Doing a Single Jump into Triple carries an opportunity cost on the first jump, even if hypothetically, a jump combo bonus is awarded on the 2nd jump.
    Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    LOL! Because the 2Lo and 2T each worths like 1 point and half a piece. Do you think limiting them to just two each makes any practical sense? It doesn't pass the common sense test, does it? Plus, these double jumps are usually included as part of jump combos or should I say, they tend to form the backbone of jump combos and rarely ever executed as stand alone jumps, not at the elite level anyway. Double Axels are often executed as stand alone element and in the past, the GOE on the 2A makes it a very attractive choice and smartly taken advantage of by no other than Yu Na Kim who used it as a Tripe Loop replacement. Limiting such jumps to just two each may hinder skaters' ability to complete jump combos as well. Imagine trying to keep up with how many 2T and/or 2Lo you have already done in the program so not to be hit with extra/repeated element penalty and have the element voided. It would be a nightmare I think. Skaters have trouble keep up with how many combo slots they still have left as it is, see Oda and Chan, adding a rule that impacts the backbone of jump combo would make it very difficult to manage.
    I'm not just talking about practically, I think it's stupid and ugly to see someone only adding on 2Lo's or 2T's in their combinations. If someone is already doing two 3T's and then adds three 2T's to her combinations, that's five of the same type of jump (*cough* Lepisto.) People complained about YuNa because her scores were high, but stylistically I find the above scenario worse. And if they thought that doing what YuNa did was so easy, why didn't more ladies do it? (hint: because most weren't doing 3-3's as successfully/reliably. Or, Mirai did the same last season, but she had to do two relatively difficult combos: 2A-3T and 3Lo-2A seq.) What happens if you pop or downgrade a planned 3Lo or 3T and possibly get a combo nullified? Don't plan combos with all the same double jumps, and/or consider doing a sequence combination without 3Lo or 3T.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Another way combo jumps are unfairly scored under the COP is the fact that the GOE values are the same as they would be for a solo jump.
    Yes, thanks for pointing this out and doing the number crunching.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    But wait, isn't this mitigated by the fact that negative GOE is also halved? In some cases, yes. Let's say a skater does a 3</2< jump combo of some kind, again the max negative GOE is -2.1 vs. -2.7 separately. However, there are other cases where negative GOE is made worse by the fact that the jumps are done in combo.
    ...
    The COP system makes absolutely no distinction between the difficulty of the jumps combined in base value, and even penalizes skaters for doing more difficult combinations. For instance, a 2axel/3toe and then a 3lutz is worth exactly as much as a 3lutz/3toe followed by a 2axel in base value. But in GOE, it's a different story. The GOE scale used is based on the hardest jump attempted. So for a 2a/3toe, the max GOE is +2.1. Same for the solo 3lutz. Same for the 3lutz/3toe, but a 2axel only gets a max GOE of +1.5.

    So yes, all else being equal, doing a 2axel/3toe then a 3lutz will earn more points than the more difficult jump layout of a 3lutz/3toe followed by a 2axel. This is patently ridiculous, but it is one of the reasons why we're seeing so freaking many 2axel/3toe combos now. Not only is it easier for skaters to maximize their jumping passes by doing a 3toe after a 2axel, but it increases the overall +GOE they can get.
    Last edited by prettykeys; 03-03-2011 at 07:40 PM.

  2. #197
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Serious Business is correct, but I've been saying that same thing for 5 years now. ISU will likely take another 5 years to realize "hey, we need to give bonuses to combinations so that these difficult moves are properly rewarded." And after finally arriving at this conclusion, they will implement it poorly with some kind of across-the-board bonus or something that doesn't specifically take into account the difficulty of each combination.

    Also, I'm tired of reading about what Yu-Na's jump layout will be. So I'm just going to tell you what it is:

    3Lutz-3Toe
    3Flip
    3Sal-2Toe
    ----------
    2Axel-2Toe-2Loop
    3Lutz
    3Sal
    2Axel

  3. #198
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Le gasp. Blades of Passion, OMG! When the assassins come for you know that your sacrifice is appreciated.

    Quick calculation shows that the base value of Yuna's planned jumps add up to exactly 43. For comparison, the layout that Miki used at GPF, Japanese Nationals and now 4cc net her 44.36 in base value.

    However, the base value of Miki's SP jumps are 16.2 compared to Yuna's SP jumps that come up to 18.7.

    So overall, Yuna still has a 1.14 advantage in the value of her planned jumps compared to Miki.
    Last edited by Serious Business; 03-04-2011 at 12:46 AM.

  4. #199
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Serious Business is correct, but I've been saying that same thing for 5 years now. ISU will likely take another 5 years to realize "hey, we need to give bonuses to combinations so that these difficult moves are properly rewarded." And after finally arriving at this conclusion, they will implement it poorly with some kind of across-the-board bonus or something that doesn't specifically take into account the difficulty of each combination.

    Also, I'm tired of reading about what Yu-Na's jump layout will be. So I'm just going to tell you what it is:

    3Lutz-3Toe
    3Flip
    3Sal-2Toe
    ----------
    2Axel-2Toe-2Loop
    3Lutz
    3Sal
    2Axel
    You know what BOP, you already revealed her jump layout, anything on her SP? Any more details on her programs?
    Last edited by cooper; 03-04-2011 at 02:20 AM.

  5. #200
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    Anything on her SP?
    It's exactly the same as before, as the only new rule affecting the SP is the omission of the spiral sequence. Since she's doing 3Lz+3T in the LP, it's safe to assume she'll do the same in the SP.

    It's too bad she's taking out the 2A+3T. I daresay nobody does that combination better, especially with a spread-eagle or ina bauer entrance. And it's ironic considering how many more skaters are doing that combination this season as result of the new rules, that those same rules have made Yuna omit the combo she's done every season since her junior years.

  6. #201
    Long live the Queen! YunaBliss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Serious Business is correct, but I've been saying that same thing for 5 years now. ISU will likely take another 5 years to realize "hey, we need to give bonuses to combinations so that these difficult moves are properly rewarded." And after finally arriving at this conclusion, they will implement it poorly with some kind of across-the-board bonus or something that doesn't specifically take into account the difficulty of each combination.

    Also, I'm tired of reading about what Yu-Na's jump layout will be. So I'm just going to tell you what it is:

    3Lutz-3Toe
    3Flip
    3Sal-2Toe
    ----------
    2Axel-2Toe-2Loop
    3Lutz
    3Sal
    2Axel
    I, too, cannot believe Yuna is not doing her trademark 2A-3T. Are you sure about this BoP?? If this is right, I guess she really doesn't want to do 3Loop?

    Sigh, the more I think and read about the rule changes, I cannot help but think the rules were changed to "tame" Yuna... just like they used to drastically length golf courses to tame Tiger Woods' domination years back.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Serious Business is correct, but I've been saying that same thing for 5 years now. ISU will likely take another 5 years to realize "hey, we need to give bonuses to combinations so that these difficult moves are properly rewarded." And after finally arriving at this conclusion, they will implement it poorly with some kind of across-the-board bonus or something that doesn't specifically take into account the difficulty of each combination.

    Also, I'm tired of reading about what Yu-Na's jump layout will be. So I'm just going to tell you what it is:
    <snip spoiler>
    Dude.. seriously, that wasn't cool. :sheesh:

    I know you have been lucky to have witnessed her program before she is ready to reveal it to the public, but knowing the history of how she'd like to keep everything under wrap (include recent media hurrahs over the reveal or arirang, and Japanese TV snooping), you sure have spoilt the nice surprise for everyone.

    On the outset it might not seem biggie to you, but surely as fan of the sport who appear to be respectful and familiar with the skaters and their pet peeves, you should have known better? You have just spoilt the plot for an exciting thriller many have been looking forward to discover for themselves for months, and cheated what should have been the performer's privilege alone. Seems hardly fair to me.

    Not happy about this at all!!
    Last edited by os168; 03-04-2011 at 03:13 AM.

  8. #203
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Dude.. seriously, that wasn't cool. :sheesh:

    I know you have been lucky to have witnessed her program before she is ready to reveal it to the public, but knowing the history of how she'd like to keep everything under wrap (include recent media hurrahs over the reveal or arirang, and Japanese TV snooping), you sure have spoilt the nice surprise for everyone.

    On the outset it might not seem biggie to you, but surely as fan of the sport who appear to be respectful and familiar with the skaters and their pet peeves, you should have known better? You have just spoilt the plot for an exciting thriller many have been looking forward to discover for themselves for months, and cheated what should have been the performer's privilege alone having worked so hard for months. Seems hardly fair to me.

    Not happy about this at all!!
    Maybe she will surprise us all by doing something else. Jump layouts are hardly set in set stone anyways, and every good skater practices "back-up" layouts. If you're lucky, Blades saw the "back-up" and not the original. Or perhaps Blades is misleading us, giving us a false jump layout.

  9. #204
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    I'm also not happy about BOP's reveal of Yu-Na's jump layout or what BOP claims is her jump layout. I'm assuming that anyone who has really witnessed it in practice was sworn to a vow of secrecy, so I have my doubts about BOP's claims. In any event, it wasn't cool. Besides, it is interesting to speculate about it until we all get to see it at Worlds.

  10. #205
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    I don't get why this is such a big deal. It's just a jump layout

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by YunaBliss View Post
    ... Sigh, the more I think and read about the rule changes, I cannot help but think the rules were changed to "tame" Yuna... just like they used to drastically length golf courses to tame Tiger Woods' domination years back.
    You might be right. Yu-Na reached a new level in ladies skating and the old rules really rewarded her for it. Perhaps the PTB (powers that be) decided that 20-point blowouts were not good for the sport. This is a big mistake IMO, because Yu-Na has brought a renewed level of excitement to ladies skating and she is pushing the entire ladies field to up their game. Any revised scoring system should reward the combination of athleticism and artistry embodied by Yu-Na while also rewarding the 3A appropriately for its difficulty. The new scoring system, however, might be more focused on the later than the former.
    Last edited by jatale; 03-04-2011 at 01:57 PM.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Serious Business is correct, but I've been saying that same thing for 5 years now. ISU will likely take another 5 years to realize "hey, we need to give bonuses to combinations so that these difficult moves are properly rewarded." And after finally arriving at this conclusion, they will implement it poorly with some kind of across-the-board bonus or something that doesn't specifically take into account the difficulty of each combination.
    I think one of the reason we don't see the bonuses is that simply speaking it actually places even MORE emphasis on the jumps and we trend back to a time where everything else doesn't matter.

  13. #208
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    About the 2A-3T combo, I think the reason for the popularity of that element was because it is the only way that a lady can do a seven triple program without a triple-triple or a triple Axel. 7 jumping passes to do 7 triples and an Axel. I believe that Akiko Suzuki did seven-triple programs like that.

    However, trying to do seven triples and the full complement of triples (minus 3A) does not seem to be a goal any more. (Michelle Kwan did it eleven times in her career, but a couple of times used eight jumping passes.) Under the CoP there is no particular advantage in displaying the full range of triples, and the new rules make it hard to gain much by doubling up on the 2A and an extra triple toe.

  14. #209
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I think one of the reason we don't see the bonuses is that simply speaking it actually places even MORE emphasis on the jumps and we trend back to a time where everything else doesn't matter.
    We will never see anything NEW and worthy of a bonus because there is no base value for it.

  15. #210
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    About the 2A-3T combo, I think the reason for the popularity of that element was because it is the only way that a lady can do a seven triple program without a triple-triple or a triple Axel. 7 jumping passes to do 7 triples and an Axel. I believe that Akiko Suzuki did seven-triple programs like that.
    That used to be true, but now we're seeing a lot of top skaters do programs with 6 triples that nonetheless include a 2axel/3toe. For instance, both Mirai Nagasu and Miki Ando only do 6 triples, but both attempt a 2axel/3toe regularly in the FS. And since both Mirai and Miki are only comfortable with doing 4 of the 5 triples (Mirai lacks the 3sal, and Miki's 3flip has been iffy ever since she fixed her lip... that came out wrong...), it would not be possible for them to do a 7 triple program anyway. The reason they do a 2a/3toe combo is so they can cram in the most jumps possible (this way they get to repeat 2 triples and repeat 2 2axels without using any sequences). That's a reason I didn't think of when writing my previous post.

    But the increased GOE scale of values is still relevant. By adding a 3toe to an easier jump like 2a rather than say, a 3lutz, they actually increase the GOE they can get. For instance, Yuna's planned jump layout that Blades of Passion leaked suffers in comparison because of this. Only 5 of her jumping passes uses the +2.1 scale of values GOE, while 6 of the jumping passes of both Miki and Mirai uses the +2.1 scale. In fact, it might be strategically advantageous for Yuna to switch her combos around so that she's doing a 3lutz/2toe/2loop and a 2axel/3toe instead even though that's easier! Again that's not very fair.

    The goal of a 7 triple program also doesn't apply to Mao Asada, who plans a 2axel/3toe in her FS. Yes, she plans a 7 triple program. But because one of those triples is the triple axel, she doesn't need to do a 2axel. She could do a 7 triple program with a solo 3toe or a 3toe/2loop combo. In fact, given how often the 3toe on her 2axel/3toe gets the UR call, she should have switched it to a 3toe/2loop combo. The 3t/2l is worth 6.49, while the 2a/3t with a UR call is worth 6.82. But the latter comes with negative GOE, while the former has a shot at +GOE. Or even better, she should switch it to a 3loop/2loop combo. That has a higher base value than the UR 2a/3t, is a combo she's landed in the past, and with her current planned jumps she has room to repeat one more triple. Oh well, she never asked me.

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