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Thread: What do you want to see at Worlds ...Ladies

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    My post was in response to the GOE analysis provided by Serious Business about how it might theoretically benefit a hypothetical skater to switch elements around to take advantage of peculiarities and loopholes in the scoring system.

    Absolutely, Yu-na Kim should and will highlight her show-stopper, the 3Lz/3T combination.

    As for the point that excellent jumps can spill over to higher scores in unrelated areas, I still think that it is practically impossible for judges to compartmentalize their scores the way the CoP intends for them to do. When a skater hits all of her technical elements with panache, that just makes the whole program sing. (JMO.)
    But your point about excellent jumps being rewarded in unrelated areas is quite simply wrong. You may think it is "practically impossible" for the judges to compartmentalize their scores...but they do. The GOE that Yu-Na, or any skater, receives on her non-jump elements has nothing to do with how well she executed her opening jump combination, in Yu-Na's case the 3Lz/3T. I've already cited multiple examples for you over the years. Here's one more: Yu-Na "only" completed a 3Lz/2t at the 2009 GPF LP--but received slightly higher GOE on her spiral there than at either of her two GP events.

    If you take a closer look at the protocols, it is quite interesting to see how often the judges get the GOE aspect of the elements RIGHT per the guidelines, far better than they get the PCS, particularly with excellent elements by skaters of lesser reputation and with weaker elements by skaters of better reputations. Like I said before, if you have a problem with the guidelines rewarded all aspects of a spiral as opposed to just flexibility, that is another issue.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think it is very difficult to guess how questions of this sort play out in the CoP. For instance, I would expect that if Yu-na replaces 3Lz+3T and 2A with 2A+3T and 3Lz, then her scores in Interpretation, Transitions, etc. will go down, not to mention the GOE on her step sequence. The judges will say, Yu-na regressed from last year, she's not the skater she once was.

    Case in point: last year, as long as she landed that 3Lz+3T she always got great GOEs on her ordinary-at-best spiral sequence.
    Don't be ridiculous. YuNa's spiral is one of the best out there. Her speed and ice coverage in spiral sequence is not matched by any other skater.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Here's one more: Yu-Na "only" completed a 3Lz/2t at the 2009 GPF LP--but received slightly higher GOE on her spiral there than at either of her two GP events.
    I guess I was wrong about that.

    I just looked up that protocol. At that event Yu-na got higher GOE on her spiral than on any oither element. In the view of the judges, her spiral was the very best thing in her program -- better than her 3Lz+2T, better than her 3F, better than her 2A+2T+2Lo, her 2A+3T, her 3S, her 3Lz, her step sequence, and any of her three spins!

    Like I said before, if you have a problem with the guidelines rewarded all aspects of a spiral as opposed to just flexibility, that is another issue.
    No problem at all. A spiral is an edge element. The most important thing about it is the quality, depth and control of the edge. This is kind of hard to judge, watching on TV (the camera often doesn't show the skater's feet).

    Strange as it seems, in the GOE guidelines for the element there is no mention whatever of blade-on-ice skills!

    1) good flow, energy, and execution
    2) good speed during execution
    3) good body line and full extension
    4) minimal delay between spiral positions
    5) good flexibility
    6) creativity and originality
    7) ability to attain positions quickly and effortlessly
    8) element matched to the musical structure

    I presume that the judges who give Yu-na +2 GOE (four bullets) are giving her credit for exceptional execution in 1, 2, 4, and 7 (similar to 4).

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    Don't be ridiculous. YuNa's spiral is one of the best out there. Her speed and ice coverage in spiral sequence is not matched by any other skater.
    Yu-na, one of the greatest skaters of all time, does everything well.

    But every athlete does some things better than others. To me, her spiral sequence is not the aspect of her performance that I leave the arena gushing most volubly about. If I said her Lutz is better than her flip, that would not be anything to get mad about.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But every athlete does some things better than others. To me, her spiral sequence is not the aspect of her performance that I leave the arena gushing most volubly about. If I said her Lutz is better than her flip, that would not be anything to get mad about.
    Thanks Mathman for your very reasonable reply. I appreciate it. I would also add #8 to the GOE that she gets for her spiral. And I'd also add, that GOE for footwork and spins are factored but GOE for spirals are not, so the difference is not as wide as you may think when just looking at the factored GOE.

    I know the second part of your response was not directed at me, but I want to say that of course if it's not the element you gush the most about, I for one totally get that and understand it! But your original idea about how the judges score it and have scored it over the years is separate from how you personally feel about it.

  5. #230
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But every athlete does some things better than others. To me, [YuNa's] spiral sequence is not the aspect of her performance that I leave the arena gushing most volubly about. If I said her Lutz is better than her flip, that would not be anything to get mad about.
    But that's not what you said. You said YuNa's spiral is "ordinary-at-best" and then went on to imply how her positive GOE doesn't match the "ordinariness" without reference to CoP's current criteria/bullet points for spirals and a proposed explanation of how her exceptional 3-3 combo is related to this "error" in the GOE for her spiral.

    Also, "ordinary at best", to me, implies that someone should ideally score nothing greater than a 0 in GOE. Not even 0.1 or 0.2, since ordinary is the best she can do. And of course you're free to express this opinion. But don't act surprised that it ruffled some feathers.


  6. #231
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    ^ I always end up regretting it when I spout off about CoP scoring. I ought to like all these delicious numbers...but somehow, I don't.

    Sport or art? When you can't tell where one leaves off and the other begins, that is a great performance. The thing about Yu-na Kim is not whether she deserves 4 bullets or 5, or whether she can get an extra two-tenths of a point base value by rearranging her jump combos. Rather, it is her total command of the ice and of the audience. You can't take your eyes off her!

    My fave is Michelle Kwan. Why? Her jumps are not the biggest of all time. Her Lutz edge is not the deepest and steadiest. Her layback spin is barely adequate. She does not have a flexible back. She never had a difficult triple-triple, only an off-again, on-again 3T/3T. Her spiral is excellent but not as eye-popping as Sasha Cohen's. She won a lot of events, but sometimes she didn't. So...meh. Right?

    And yet...at her opening pose she reaches out and grabs your heart and doesn't let go until the last note of music has faded and the sky is raining flowers and teddy bears.

    (That's what figure skating is all about, Charlie Brown. ; )

  7. #232
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ I always end up regretting it when I spout off about CoP scoring. I ought to like all these delicious numbers...but somehow, I don't.

    Sport or art? When you can't tell where one leaves off and the other begins, that is a great performance. The thing about Yu-na Kim is not whether she deserves 4 bullets or 5, or whether she can get an extra two-tenths of a point base value by rearranging her jump combos. Rather, it is her total command of the ice and of the audience. You can't take your eyes off her!

    My fave is Michelle Kwan. Why? Her jumps are not the biggest of all time. Her Lutz edge is not the deepest and steadiest. Her layback spin is barely adequate. She does not have a flexible back. She never had a difficult triple-triple, only an off-again, on-again 3T/3T. Her spiral is excellent but not as eye-popping as Sasha Cohen's. She won a lot of events, but sometimes she didn't. So...meh. Right?

    And yet...at her opening pose she reaches out and grabs your heart and doesn't let go until the last note of music has faded and the sky is raining flowers and teddy bears.

    (That's what figure skating is all about, Charlie Brown. ; )
    Yeah, I kinda knew what you meant, but I had to speak because I disagreed even in the intangible nonscoring sense. I like YuNa's spiral, to me it's still one of the highlights of her programs, even though it's not her best skill nor among the best in the current field/history.

    And, I take it then, that you don't mind the alleged "lack of compartmentalization" in judges' minds? Or are you even encouraging it? Or are you pointing out that COP fails in trying to compartmentalize - and from this observation, they should give up and let figure skating go back to being judged in a more wholistic sense?

    I think our discussion just proves there will always be some subjective hurdle to judging. Right now I think the biggest problem is how the PC's are scored, especially with regards to Interpretation/Choreo/Presentation. That is probably why you still get a lot of disjoint, ugly programs with no unified themes or concepts still doing well. Judges shouldn't be scared to give out 2-3's to badly constructed programs by even elite skaters. I already alluded to one in this thread, heh.

  8. #233
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    ^ I don't know what I think about the CoP. About individual skaters, I always feel bad when I end up hurting someone's feelings, and then I usually fall all over myself backtracking in the most wishy-washy way possible. Nah, I'm not crazy about Yu-na's spiral and I would only give it a zero by the Yu-na standard. But I guess that translates into a +2 by the everybody standard.

    I believe that when the CoP first came out it took the judges (as well as fans) a certain amount of time to adjust to a new way of thinking. In the first couple of years there was a tendency just to mark the five program components across the board like the old second mark. As for GOEs, I think the trend has been two-fold. (a) Decision-making power has steadily drifted from the judges to the technical specialists (the very last set of rules changes went back the other way a little bit), and (b) the guidelines for judges have become more and more detailed and specific.

    And, I take it then, that you don't mind the alleged "lack of compartmentalization" in judges' minds? Or are you even encouraging it? Or are you pointing out that COP fails in trying to compartmentalize - and from this observation, they should give up and let figure skating go back to being judged in a more wholistic sense?
    I don't know what I think about these questions. I go back and forth.

    That is probably why you still get a lot of disjoint, ugly programs with no unified themes or concepts still doing well. Judges shouldn't be scared to give out 2-3's to badly constructed programs by even elite skaters. I already alluded to one in this thread, heh.
    But then, too, I have seen some great programs that were really little more than just a linear demonstration of skills. Here is my triple Lutz. Here is my sit spin. Here is my footwork sequence. Eat your hearts out, suckers! (Michelle's Aranjuez/Tosca, for instance.)

  9. #234
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ I don't know what I think about the CoP. About individual skaters, I always feel bad when I end up hurting someone's feelings, and then I usually fall all over myself backtracking in the most wishy-washy way possible. Nah, I'm not crazy about Yu-na's spiral and I would only give it a zero by the Yu-na standard. But I guess that translates into a +2 by the everybody standard.
    Don't apologize for your opinionsssss pfft. Although, I don't want to offend my fellow YuNa fans either, so I won't say what I would give her. Something greater than 0 and less than 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I believe that when the CoP first came out it took the judges (as well as fans) a certain amount of time to adjust to a new way of thinking.
    Hopefully soon they will review what they consider a good overall program vs. a sloppy mess from the past, and assign PC values ranging from 0-10 by the elite standard, so judges can compare contemporary programs in their minds and see how they would score in that comparison...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But then, too, I have seen some great programs that were really little more than just a linear demonstration of skills. Here is my triple Lutz. Here is my sit spin. Here is my footwork sequence. Eat your hearts out, suckers! (Michelle's Aranjuez/Tosca, for instance.)
    See, that's interesting. I like Aranjuez, somehow it was more than a demonstration of skills to me. I liked how she flung her arms out with the strumming of the guitars, and a split jump she did to another strum, just before her spiral...the crescendo and climax into her steps, and ending glowingly.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    ...Hopefully soon they will review what they consider a good overall program vs. a sloppy mess...
    Thank you for that, I chuckled and couldn't agree more - "sloppy messes" happen and should not be scored anywhere near as good as well-constructed programs.

    By the way, does any other foreign language skater have a English language fan site other than Yu-Na? Just wondering.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by jatale View Post
    Thank you for that, I chuckled and couldn't agree more - "sloppy messes" happen and should not be scored anywhere near as good as well-constructed programs.

    By the way, does any other foreign language skater have a English language fan site other than Yu-Na? Just wondering.
    Mao does, as does Plushenko (I believe), Daisuke, Miki... erm, not sure who else. But quite a few do, especially the top Japanese skaters :3

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith11 View Post
    Mao does, as does Plushenko (I believe), Daisuke, Miki... erm, not sure who else. But quite a few do, especially the top Japanese skaters :3
    Yes, Zhenya definitely has an English website. I made a point in going there to check out his platinum medal

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    Don't be ridiculous. YuNa's spiral is one of the best out there. Her speed and ice coverage in spiral sequence is not matched by any other skater.
    no way...

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    I agree with cosmos about YuNa's spiral sequence, I certainly like it and do think it's one of the best. She has a beautiful line, good extension, a floating quality on the ice, and good coverage and speed. That is not to say it is the best spiral sequence, just that it is among the best.
    Last edited by jatale; 03-06-2011 at 11:05 PM.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by jatale View Post
    I agree with cosmos about YuNa's spiral sequence, I certainly like it and do think it's one of the best. She has a beautiful line, good extension, a floating quality on the ice, and good coverage and speed. That is not to say it is the best spiral sequence, just that it is among the best.
    She has good speed and ice coverage but it's definitely not true about her lines/extensions. A great spiral has both the technical and aesthetic aspects. Unfortunately, Kim's spirals only have the technical parts down.

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