What do you want to see at Worlds ...Ladies | Page 8 | Golden Skate

What do you want to see at Worlds ...Ladies

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
sunny0760 you are absolutely right that training a reliable, UR-free 3/3 would be more realistic for Miki than a 3a, while still boosting her score considerably. If Miki can consistently do a 3lutz/3loop in the SP, that's +3.3 points to her current SP base marks. And throwing her 4sal back in would be more doable than training a 3axel that she's never landed in competition. Even with a <, a 4sal is worth 7.4. Substitute that for her solo 3toe, and even with the -GOE she should still come out ahead. Any of these changes would require lots of training, stamina, reconfigured programs. So it won't be easy. But it's more doable than a 3a.

I have no problem with the point difference between 2axels and 3axels. A triple axel is so much more difficult than a double. The 5.2 point difference between them may not even do the 3axel justice. The 3axel is many orders of magnitude more difficult than the 2axel. Sure, it's just one rotation. But achieving that extra rotation has hampered countless gifted athletes and even more wannabes. That difficulty has to be rewarded.

I also don't have a problem with the value of the 2axel being lowered (although other jumps had their values adjusted, too). Just based on my observations the 2axel is so easy it's an afterthought for almost all figure skaters competing on the international level from juniors up. It struck me as being a little overvalued before.

And I also agree with the limits on 2axels in the FS. Skaters were regularly throwing 3 of them in a program, which is just a bit much.

And while I'm in an agreeable mood, I am heartily in favor of the new < rules. I've always railed against the downgrades where a 3axel downgraded to a 2axel would cost a skater more points than if she fell on a 2axel. In fact, even the current < rules are a bit harsh. I don't like the double penalty aspect of it, where both the base value scores are reduced and judges are supposed to take off -goe. In my opinion it should be done like edge calls, where the base values remain unchanged, and it's up to judges to deduct.

The < rule affects Yuna in that in the past, her consistency in not getting jumps downgraded gave her a safety cushion of points over her competitors who do get downgraded now and then. She has less of that cushion now, but it's still there!

Now all these rule changes affect Yuna negatively in some way. I agree with them and find them fair, but, here's a rule change I think is just as necessary and fair that would benefit Yuna:

Jump combos should have their base value multiplied by a factor so that it's worth more than doing the jumps separately. This is a no-brainer as doing jumps separately is a lot easier than doing them in combo, and the COP point system is supposed to reward and grade difficulty. Prior to the limit on 2axels, attaching triple jumps on the end of combos still benefited skaters like Yuna because they can free up jumping passes to do the 2axel and score some extra points. But with that option taken away, it's necessary to reward skaters capable of doing triple jumps after another jump in some other way.
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Rochette's PCS should've been ahead of Ando's, rather unquestionably. And again, why do you think Asada would've caught Rochette if Rochette was fourth in the SP? She beat Asada in the LP as well. Ando's PCS have been blatantly held up for years.

Rochette was THE favorite of the Olymic host.
Ando was the No.2 Japanese.

That makes a big difference in this sport. The ISU needed Rochette to make an Olympic medal contender, and that' why they squeezed her above Ando in Los Angeles. I'm pretty sure that Rochette was not given a world medal otherwise.
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
It's not only about the jump content, it's about the quality of the jumps too. Asada's jumps at the 4CC weren't perfect at all, some were borderline (depends on the technical caller, next time she can get < for that), flutz. And even if she rotates her jumps, Kim (of course if she's in good shape) will get better GOE and she has 3-3 wich is a big question for Asada so far. Yes, Mao has her 3A, but I'm not so sure it's enough to beat Yuna. So I expect it to be close.
I don't really care which one of them will win as long as they come 1st and 2nd, I like both. I only want to see great performances and fair judging

The base value became more important under the new rules. As someone calculated, Asada has the BV advantage of 10 points to Ando and 9 points to Kim. As for last season, the gap between Asada and Kim was only 1.5 to 2.3 points (depending on the timing of Kim's 2A-3T). How Asada's rivals can narrow these gaps by so-called qualities and Asada's "expected" mistakes? That's the main focus of the competition. The audience factor can't be neglected. I expect Asada has the biggest advantage in this respect. I mean the technical panel would feel the pressure to refrain from close calls unfavorable for Asada, especially when it decides win or lose.
 
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jatale

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
For those of us who are not informed, can someone quickly explain the rule changes that occurred after last year's World Championship? (Note: I think the idea of having a "World Championship" just a month or so after an Olympics is ABSURD! In an Olympic year, the Olympics should count as the World Championship! It doesn't take a genius to figure that out!!!!) If there is a website or a previous discussion thread here that clearly explains the rule changes, a pointer to them would be helpful. I'm also curious as to how these changes impact the current field of senior ladies, who is advantaged and who is dis-advantaged by the changes?

If the 3A is going to give a huge point advantage to female skaters who do them, that will force every female to learn them. I'm all for rewarding the 3A appropriately for its degree of difficulty but it could be a game changer, especially for the current field of senior ladies. The junior ladies might have the time to learn the jump before they enter senior level competitions and then the playing field will be level again. In the meantime, Mao will have a huge advantage over the entire senior field if she is the only skater capable of doing a 3A. Moreover, it could diminish the artistic aspects of skating while skaters concentrate on turning into jumping beans again.
 
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yangjie

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
i wonder when yuna and mao did a perfect SP, who would be a winner,,,

based on news rules, even if she got a high score like Olympic , she could not beat mao

but,, maybe jugeds would give GOE +3 to yuna ?
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
What I want to see..

* A lip or flutz getting 0 points for violation of Zayak rule :biggrin:
(I don't have any skater particular in mind. I just hate seeing 3 same triple jumps. )

:thumbsup: In my dream world.... Just don't think partial credit does enough to force rising skaters to develop correct technique. It's frustrating that a lutz with an edge call still gets as much as a correct flip. It's unfair for the current crop of skaters to be over-penalized for technique mastered years ago (although it's certainly possible to correct, e.g. Joannie and Miki...), but something must be done so that skaters starting from scratch have reason to do it right.
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
i wonder when yuna and mao did a perfect SP, who would be a winner,,,

based on news rules, even if she got a high score like Olympic , she could not beat mao

but,, maybe jugeds would give GOE +3 to yuna ?

Well if you re-calculate the Olympic scores to reflect the new changes, Yu-na gets 76.44 and Mao gets 72.80. Of course, this season Mao's brought the 3A to the program. Assuming Yu-na's scores stay the same and that Mao's layout doesn't change, Yu-na still beats Mao in the SP. I took Mao's 4CC LP 3A (+1.2x GOE) + the rest of her 4CC SP TES + Olympic PCS and got 71.56.

As long as Yu-na goes clean in the SP, I don't see anyone beating her. It's the LP where the other skaters play catch-up.
 

ayayukiituka

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I don't know whether I can say exactly what I want to say in English,but I don't think it's good to have big points difference in SP. Basically considering what SP is like,it won't happen,I think.
 

jatale

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
I do think it's about time that the 3A becomes a standard element in ladies skating, the men have had it for many years now. Mao does a very nice one in competition and if she can do it then so can the other ladies. It may take a few years, but I'm expecting to see the 3A performed more and more often in the ladies competitions.
 
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yangjie

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Well if you re-calculate the Olympic scores to reflect the new changes, Yu-na gets 76.44 and Mao gets 72.80. Of course, this season Mao's brought the 3A to the program. Assuming Yu-na's scores stay the same and that Mao's layout doesn't change, Yu-na still beats Mao in the SP. I took Mao's 4CC LP 3A (+1.2x GOE) + the rest of her 4CC SP TES + Olympic PCS and got 71.56.

As long as Yu-na goes clean in the SP, I don't see anyone beating her. It's the LP where the other skaters play catch-up.

there is no SpSq in ladies' SP, yu-na 's score is not high like 76.44. it would be around 72, i think.
 

BravesSkateFan

Medalist
Joined
Aug 7, 2003
Mainly I want Alissa to skate 2 clean programs regardless of placement, and perhaps put the last of her naysayers to rest.
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Unline Ando, Kim must prove she's THE absolutely better skater than Asada. If the result turns out "Kim could win thanks to Asada's errors", that's tantamount to a defeat. The base value difference of 9 points is practically impossible to fill by factored down GOE, or extremely diffucult even with the 3loop. I don't think Kim can expect the PCS advantages in Tokyo when Asada skated (visibly) clean with "expected" standing ovations. Asada's programs of this season are not so difficult as "three 3axels". Her solo 3A is less prone to UR than the 3A combos. Japan has two (gold) medal contenders now. At least, the pressure on Asada was reduced, and she has the higher motivation "to beat Ando".

Asada's comments after 4CC:
"It's getting better now. There's no problem as long as I can keep the momentum."
"I want to show the best performances at worlds."
 
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dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
there is no SpSq in ladies' SP, yu-na 's score is not high like 76.44. it would be around 72, i think.

Yes, yes, how silly of me. Then the Olympic scores would be around 72 for Yu-na and 68 for Mao. Yu-na has lost her comfty SP cushion (Mao's 71.XX). She better step it up in the Long if she plans on winning.
 

jatale

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
What is "SpSq"? I'm getting excited to see the World Competition, I enjoy watching all four categories but the Ladies is almost always my favorite competition. I really don't know what to expect this year considering how many of the Olympic skaters are retired or taking the year off, the rule changes, arrival of new skaters up from the junior ranks, coaching changes, etc. The year following the Olympics is always one where the ground shifts a bit more than usual. I'm most anxious to see Yu-Na skate competitively again, I need the fix of more exquisite performances from her.
 

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
i wonder when yuna and mao did a perfect SP, who would be a winner,,,

based on news rules, even if she got a high score like Olympic , she could not beat mao

but,, maybe jugeds would give GOE +3 to yuna ?

The new rule eliminate +3 GOE. Right now the highest +GOE is 2, so assuming Yuna did her 3Lz+3T the same quality as before (this is the jump Kim rackup the +GOE mark the most on average), the most she can is +2. Factor that with eliminating, highest and lowest GOE, plus two random GOE, skaters will get +1.8 most. None of the female skater so far get +2 GOE that i can think of.

If both skate clean with, with no <, Asada will come out ahead bc she has higher base value (now that is assuming they both get close PCS mark). If Asada has one < call, it will be close by a margin, depends on who did better none jump elements wise. But I don't think Kim is going to have huge 4-8 points margin from the rest of the field.
 
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breeze

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Joesitz, dlgpffps, I'm glad to know there are other posters feeling the same way about lip/flutz, though I don't really see it happening anytime soon. I agree that young skaters need the incentive to learn the correct technique. We engineers say it like this; they don't debug a code when the bug doesn't affect the revenue from the software.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The new rule eliminate +3 GOE. Right now the highest +GOE is 2, so assuming Yuna did her 3Lz+3T the same quality as before (this is the jump Kim rackup the +GOE mark the most on average), the most she can is +2. Factor that with eliminating, highest and lowest GOE, plus two random GOE, skaters will get +1.8 most. None of the female skater so far get +2 GOE that i can think of.

If both skate clean with, with no <, Asada will come out ahead bc she has higher base value (now that is assuming they both get close PCS mark). If Asada has one < call, it will be close by a margin, depends on who did better none jump elements wise. But I don't think Kim is going to have huge 4-8 points margin from the rest of the field.

It is actually quite interesting that all the changes in the rules this season work to the disadvantage of Kim. The one proposed change that would have helped her -- a bonus for jumps done in combination -- was defeated in the ISU congress.
 
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