Is Bullying an Equal Opportunity Problem?

Olympia said:

I enjoyed watching what I had time for, but I didn't reach the part about Johnny Weir. I hope Kurt didn't mean anything by it. I adore Kurt, but he does put his foot in it sometimes. On the other hand, Plushy does a Bielmann spin, doesn't he? So maybe Kurt wasn't equating a Bielmann with androgyny... I hope!

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I think people just look for ways to be offended.

What a stupid comment for Kurt to make. Weir doesn't even do a Biellmann.

Patrick says a male skater would lose all respect if he did one?!

I've been told that a Biellmann, being a flexibility move, is one that should only be done by girls. And any guy who does it puts his masculinity in doubt. And any guy with his masculinity in doubt might just be gay! I don't understand that mindset myself.

I wonder what Chan and Browning think of compatriot Shawn Sawyer then. Sawyer occasionally does an arabesque spiral, among other flexibility moves. So Chan and all the men he knows have no respect for Sawyer?

Sexist, homophobic and ignorant comments from Patrick and Kurt.

The young skater from Japan (Hanyu?) who just won silver at 4CC does a Biellmann. With luck he will be beating Patrick Chan at Sochi, so PC will be able to eat his words!

One of the people/organizations that Patrick follows on twitter is Neil Patrick Harris, an openly gay actor, I would give him the benefit of doubt as far as him being homophobic is concerned.

Serious Business said:

I wonder what Chan and Browning think of compatriot Shawn Sawyer then. Sawyer occasionally does an arabesque spiral, among other flexibility moves. So Chan and all the men he knows have no respect for Sawyer?

Sexist, homophobic and ignorant comments from Patrick and Kurt.

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I still don't get how one can be PHOBIC and be in a sport where there are many who are out at least so much as they're out around their peers. Someone with a phobia stays away from situations that will put them at odds with their "unnatural fear". Nevermind that he looked up to Brian Orser a lot during his career, especially before he became Orser's heir apparent. He was welcomed into Orser and Hamilton's skate god club with open arms (it's an inside joke that Orser started with Hamilton...). So hmmm...

And I wonder what Kurt's gay friends think of him being called homophobic.

And, IIRC, Kurt was in Sawyer's court early on...

just don't get where any of us get to label another as something so horrible as a bigot... as if we know these people enough to know what the heck we're talking about.

Kitt said:

The young skater from Japan (Hanyu?) who just won silver at 4CC does a Biellmann. With luck he will be beating Patrick Chan at Sochi, so PC will be able to eat his words!

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What has whoever winning anything, with luck or not, got to do with right or wrong? Or whether Patrick is homophobic?

fscric said:

One of the people/organizations that Patrick follows on twitter is Neil Patrick Harris, an openly gay actor, I would give him the benefit of doubt as far as him being homophobic is concerned.

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President Obama is a longtime follower of Pchiddy but that and NPH are besides the point. In Patrick's real life, he is good friends with gay skaters and he pays respect to his mentors who are gay. No one who actually knows him calls him homophobic. Johnny Weir is the only one carrying on with catty remarks about him but then Johnny does the same with other skaters, in his public statements and in his book.

Patrick was teased a lot as gay when he was growing up practicing his skating. So he may be a bit sensitive about being called gay, not because he's homophobic but because no one likes to be identified as a wrong gender or sexual orientation.

Those who look for Chan bashing opportunities better come up with facts rather than twisted interpretation of some words.

eta: All male figure skaters suffer from gay bashing regardless of their sexuality. I doubt very much any of them would do gay bashing himself or be homophobic in this sport. There is no need to add accusation of homophobia to what they have already had to endure.

Also, I've been hoping for Kurt And Patty Show, The Sequel. I hate that such narrowly focused and negative attention and harsh words may discourage and deter them.

Layfan said:

Patrick said he could not do a Bielmann spin "I wish" then he said "no actually I don't wish. You sort or lose respect among the men."

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He said that? That kid is getting on my nerves. If he won't soon learn how to control his mouth, not only Johnny Weir but also me and many other people would like to spank him on the face.

I understand that he simply stated a fact: "You sort of lose respect among the men if you do a Beilmann spin", just as it is still a general fact that one would lose respect among the men for acting like a gay. But Whether he likes it or not, Patrick is a celebrity now, a public figure that not only enjoys fame but also has his share of social responsibility. Kids internalize behavioral standards through watching what their idols do on TV or internet programs. What Patrick did to those kids is reinforcing their fear of being different. Please, Patrick, if you cannot help changing the negativity besetting the gay community, do not help reinforcing it. All you have to do is to shut your god damn mouth.

Tonichelle said:

just don't get where any of us get to label another as something so horrible as a bigot... as if we know these people enough to know what the heck we're talking about.

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I don't know what they tell others in private, I only know what they say that the rest of us can hear. And in this instance, they said something in public that I think merits a public disagreement. I'm not saying Kurt and Patrick go around beating up drag queens ('cause most drag queens would tower over them), I'm saying that they said something in public that is sexist and homophobic.

SkateFiguring said:

In Patrick's real life, he is good friends with gay skaters and he pays respect to his mentors who are gay.

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OK a few people have used the "but they're friends with and twitter followers of gays!" defense. OK, let's discredit this nonsense for once and for all. People can have all the friends they like and still be prejudiced against their friends' traits. People compartmentalize. They reason to themselves that their friends are not like that general group of people they dislike (being Canadian, I'm sure all of Kurt and Patrick's gay friends are manly lumberjacks who doesn't even know what a Biellmann is). Being friends with people who share a certain trait doesn't mean one is enlightened in every way about that trait. After all, misogyny doesn't stop most misogynists from marrying women.

SkateFiguring said:

All male figure skaters suffer from gay bashing regardless of their sexuality. I doubt very much any of them would do gay bashing himself or be homophobic in this sport.

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You must not have read anything Elvis Stojko has wrote and said. And more to the point, history is full of examples of people who experience prejudice and oppression but then go on to deal out the same kind of prejudice and oppression once they're in a relative position of power and authority. People internalize prejudices directed against them. We see it on a smaller scale all the time. Black kids who disparage each other's harmless behavior as "ghetto". Women who call other women the b-word for showing the kind of aggression and ambition that they'd give a pass to in men. Fat people who mock fatter people. And so on.

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I'm not calling for Kurt Browning and Patrick Chan to be tarred and feathered or punished in any way. I'm just pointing out that something they said is ignorant, prejudiced and stupid. You can be fans of a skater without thinking everything they say is completely enlightened. I'm sure in real life, we're all friends with people who sometimes say ignorant things, just as many of us do ourselves. And when ignorant things are said, they should be corrected. That's how people learn.

A study guide for Kurt Browning, Patrick Chan and their apologists:

The Biellmann spin isn't exclusive to a gender. Women do it more often because they're both more likely to train for it and more likely to be biologically suited for it. A man who does the Biellmann not only doesn't deserve disrespect, as Chan suggested, but should be admired for having the talent, hard work and open-mindedness to train something that's harder for their gender.

Tonichelle said:

I think people just look for ways to be offended.

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Gay people live in an environment where their atypical behavior is a laughing matter, their sexual orientation invites bully and bashing, and their very existence is rejected by many. If one is teased and beaten all the time, or if one simply learns all these negative consequences through social learning, he will be on guard all the time for being gay. To you, it seems that they are just over-reacting, looking for ways to be offended. But if you have a compassionate heart, you should be able to understand where that comes from.

SkateFiguring said:

Patrick was teased a lot as gay when he was growing up practicing his skating. So he may be a bit sensitive about being called gay.

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I don't think Patrick is homophobic, but what he did was not a service to the society, in terms of promoting diversity. He is teaching other kids that effeminate behavior is not respected and should be shunned upon. Such a message is loudly conveyed by his actions. Grow up, Patrick, if you are a man enough, you don't really have to distance yourself from any implication of being gay. Too bad, Patrick, you are a celebrity now, and I hold your behavior to a high standard. Be responsible to the society and realize that your words and actions will have an impact on others.

Serious Business and Skatinginbc, what you say about how some people behave and why they behave so are true but they are not absolutely and universally true. They are not true about Kurt and Patrick.

They were first laughing at themselves for never going to be able to do the Bielmann spin. They laughed at Kurt's one attempt and the painful consequences. And Patrick blurted out "I wish", so I think they have full respect for such a difficult maneuver. The Weir mention and the respect thing are more of a knee jerk joking excuse for their own inability, insensitive but not homophobic. Hey, the two of them were talking about their affection for each other, complete with a kiss and tender touchings. They certainly didn't concern themselves with others' possible perception of such interaction. They are man enough.

Patrick never offers up being friends with gays as covers of anything. It is me simply stating what I see, which is him interacting sincerely and loyally with these friends, not differently from non gay friends. IOW, their sexuality is not an issue in any way, positive or negative. They are just friends. He has gotten himself bashed by sticking up for them in other matters. Speaking of respect, the video shows him, with Kurt, praising and admiring other skaters, just as he has always done, except his kind and complimentary words never get any attention whereas anything he says that can be spun negatively are spread globally. Just as only a few seconds of this 30 minutes of fun and informative video get the intense attention and give another opportunity for him to be bent into even worse image than some people already have of him.

Who among us can live up to a standard of saying just the perfect things all the time, under scrutiny? It is the complete picture, especially the deeds and the actual effects of these deeds and words that matter the most. Kurt and Patrick have both demonstrated admirable traits and given their time and effort to perform many kind and charitable acts and services. They have inspired many to try hard and thrive. They have brought joy, comfort and encouragement to many. They have always treated others with respect and kindness - just ask anybody who has met them. They have NOT commited nor promoted hatred of any kind. If someone wants to define them instead with a few moments of less than perfect articulations now and again, there is nothing they can do about it, because nobody can live up to such standard. Definitely not those who throw stones mercilessly.

Skatinginbc, I understand you are not a hater. And I believe you have very good reasons to resent and take these kinds of offences extremely seriously, as we all should. However, I also feel such feelings are so intense and personal that you can be over vigilant and quick to convict. Sometimes, the issue may not lie with the person you find offensive with perceived dispicable sins. You can better the society if you turn your attention to the real perps.

FWIW, I can tell you I have personally experienced horrible prejudices most of my life. I too know what it's like to be targeted and treated badly and unfairly, often maliciously but sometimes without the awareness of the perpetrators as it is so natural to them. I'm not speaking form a position of privilege or a prefered status quo.

SkateFiguring said:

Since some of you enjoyed the 2002 video, here's Kurt And Patty Show 2010, a hilarious bromance, if you haven't seen it last summer.

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Thank you so much for the link! They both were so hilarious!

Wow, wow, wow! What did those offences come from?

Everyone does accept that men and women are different by nature, right? To say the fact that men and women are different is sexist? Something men do, women don't. And vise versa. Bielmann-spin belonged to women untill Plushenko did it. He did a women's move. That was the ugliest move in men's skating. I would guess that this spin was widely viewed in skating community as a women's spin. Plushenko is not gay. Johnny Weir is. Johnny Weir has never done a bielmann-spin, but Johnny likes to act like a woman. Kurt said "Leave that to Johnny Weir." meant that bielmann-spin is a women's movement. What they were talking about was a movement. What did that have anything to do with gay bashing, homophobic, sexist, or anything?! Over sensitive! I really don't understand what have offended anyone? There was nothing wrong with what Patrick and Kurt said.

Bluebonnet said:

Thank you so much for the link! They both were so hilarious!

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Weren't they?! And they are so infectious. I can always watch this whenever I need a good laugh.

SkateFiguring said:

Weren't they?! And they are so infectious. I can always watch this whenever I need a good laugh.

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ITA....it was a fun piece. I don't think any harm was meant to anyone........but the "Patrick haterz" come out in droves for anything he says.

SkateFiguring said:

Serious Business and Skatinginbc, what you say about how some people behave and why they behave so are true but they are not absolutely and universally true. They are not true about Kurt and Patrick.

...Who among us can live up to a standard of saying just the perfect things all the time, under scrutiny? It is the complete picture, especially the deeds and the actual effects of these deeds and words that matter the most. Kurt and Patrick have both demonstrated admirable traits and given their time and effort to perform many kind and charitable acts and services. They have inspired many to try hard and thrive. They have brought joy, comfort and encouragement to many. They have always treated others with respect and kindness - just ask anybody who has met them. They have NOT commited nor promoted hatred of any kind. If someone wants to define them instead with a few moments of less than perfect articulations now and again, there is nothing they can do about it, because nobody can live up to such standard. Definitely not those who throw stones mercilessly.

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It's so easy to expect everyone in public life to sound perfect and noble all the time, but we all say inane things sometimes that don't reflect our deepest values. I said something myself the other day that I'm still smarting about. Keep in mind also that Patrick is a teenager. I don't know about all of you, but it took me years to learn how to think before I speak, and I'm still not flawless all the time, alas.

SF, I'm sorry you have had to face prejudice. I live in a large city where people of all kinds mostly get along, and I like to hope that we're moving forward. But human nature being what it is, I know that we haven't advanced all that much just yet--or we haven't all advanced at the same pace. I guess this means that all the great work hasn't been done in the world, and that we get to do some of it!

Can we put the Patrick bashing into its own thread please? Honestly, if Patrick cured cancer, the bashers would say he was putting doctors out of work!
Let's get back to talking about great skating shows like Jackson & Chan in Oshawa in an accessible inexpensive venue, or funny ones like Kurt & Patty!

OK, I know I'm going to step on some toes with this, but here goes.

Those comments weren't appropriate, but are they really properly labeled homophobic? Aren't they more about gender and the masculine/feminine divide?

When it comes to men's skating, I prefer masculine skating over feminine skating. You may think I'm a horrible person for having that opinion, and perhaps my idea of gender is too rigid, but does that make me homophobic? Obviously, people who are attracted to the same sex don't bother me in the least.

I realize that sometimes there is a thin line between opinions about masculinity and anti-gay hatred, but I'm not sure they really crossed it.

Bluebonnet said:

Everyone does accept that men and women are different by nature, right? To say the fact that men and women are different is sexist? Something men do, women don't. And vise versa. Bielmann-spin belonged to women untill Plushenko did it. He did a women's move. That was the ugliest move in men's skating. I would guess that this spin was widely viewed in skating community as a women's spin. Plushenko is not gay. Johnny Weir is. Johnny Weir has never done a bielmann-spin, but Johnny likes to act like a woman. Kurt said "Leave that to Johnny Weir." meant that bielmann-spin is a women's movement. What they were talking about was a movement.

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I watched Yuzuru HANYU's performance on Yutube and heard the Taiwanese commentator said about his Beilmann-spin, "It is a move typically belonged to women. It is rare that a man can do it due to......". It points out the physical difference and ability between men and women. Nothing offensive at all. Absolutely politically correct.

What makes Kurt's and Patrick's comments inappropriate is that they added color and value. "You sort of lose respect among the men"---a negative value is attached to men who do a Beilmann. "Leave that to Johnny Weir"--a value is assigned: If you do a Beilmann, you belong to the class of Johnny Weir.

Pointing out gender differences is one thing, reinforcing gender stereotypes is another. It is a fine line that they have crossed. It was offensive and politically incorrect.

Does Johnny even do a Biellman? I don't recall one. He is subject to the same physical limitations as the other guys who can't do one.

Bluebonnet said:

That was the ugliest move in men's skating.

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I agree with this. Not a fan of men doing Biellmans even though I realize how rare it is for a man to be able to do a decent one. Didn't like Plushenko's at all.