What do you want to see at Worlds for the Men? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

What do you want to see at Worlds for the Men?

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Here's the CBC version of Patrick Chan's Nationals LP with Kurt Browning commentating.

I often find more to appreciate in his choreography and musicality with repeated viewing of this program, a masterful collaboration between Lori Nichol and Patrick Chan, all done with the constraint of COP competitiveness. Who else can skate this program?
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I think Bradley has a good chance to score well -- maybe even above this board's favorite, Dornbush. :) If he does two quads and two triple Axels, who else in the competition can? Maybe that will carry over into the PCSs enough to overcome his deficit in choreography.

The "2 Quads + 2 Triple Axels" is a misleading red herring that wouldn't stand up under scrutiny by the Technical Panel. How so? Bradley actually left some points on the table by not maximizing his jump content. Yes, I am not talking about his non-jump elements or his rather poor GOE. Strictly examining the red herring you mentioned, Bradley accumulated a total of 47.5 in Base Value for his jump elements excluding the two Quads. Chan scored a total of 47.83, excluding his Quads, yet with only one Triple Axel vs. Bradley's two. Shocking? Not really. Bradley managed to score lower Base Value on jumps because he didn't utilize his jumping passes as efficiently as Chan. In other words, Chan's program still has room for an additional Quad jump, say the Quad Flip (in lieu of the Double Axel) that his coaching team in Colorado is preparing him for whereas Bradley has exhausted all his jumping passes such that there is not even room for a Double Axel. Chan went around this problem by creating an unusual jump combo that is very rarely done by a man before in competition, Triple Lutz/half loop/Triple Salchow. By combining two jumps that cannot usually be combined, he managed to save a jumping pass which could be used for a Double Axel - a safe option that gathers as much point as a Level 4 CCoSp or he could later move around his elements in the future, and insert a Quad Flip in the program or bring back 2 Triple Axels, with one Quad being Toe Loop and the other, a Flip. Being able to complete all the Triple jumps with one jumping pass left presents a major strategic advantage over an opponent whose jumping passes are already maxed out.

So despite the red herring, Bradley got outjumped even without considering the Quads, which he didn't execute properly and without considering the rather poor execution on those jumps.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
OTOH, I would like Patrick better if every time I've seen him, he wasn't skating through his music, something I really don't like.
Doris, can you tell me what you mean by that because I don't see it. He hits every musical climax, he's powerful, he's fast, he has good knees (admittedly not like Oda's but that's a gift of the gods). What's wrong? I love this young man. He's not the most dramatic guy out there, he's more like a Balanchine dancer - the beautiful technique and musicality speak for themselves - but there's not much on this earth more beautiful than Balanchine. I imagine he'll become more dramatic over time. I think he has his priorities right. First things first.

Wallylutz, thanks for the HD vid.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
You said: "Who else in the competition can?" This implies he outjumps everyone, no? True or False?

What I meant to say was, if Bradley lands all of his big jumps (especially if no one else does), that could mitigate some of his weaknesses and pull his score up into the "respectable" range.

Doris, can you tell me what you mean by that because I don't see it.

I'm not Doris, but here is my two cents.

I think that at the beginning of the season Patrick's choreography contained so much detail that it seemed like he was rushing the music to work everything in.

At Worlds, I look forward to seeing him settle into the grove and let the music come to him.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Here's the CBC version of Patrick Chan's Nationals LP with Kurt Browning commentating.

I often find more to appreciate in his choreography and musicality with repeated viewing of this program, a masterful collaboration between Lori Nichol and Patrick Chan, all done with the constraint of COP competitiveness. Who else can skate this program?
Good skate for Chan! However, The actual layout of the program to the music is done soley by the choreographer. The skater may change the steps because he is unable to manage them at that point in the music, and similarly the transitions into Jumps, In essence, the skater is just tweeking what the choreographer has given.

Choreographers, imo, are the most underrated team members of a skater's competitive performance. What would Chan have looked like if Morosov, or TT had done the choreography. I contend that it was Lori that made him look good.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Choreographers, imo, are the most underrated team members of a skater's competitive performance. What would Chan have looked like if Morosov, or TT had done the choreography. I contend that it was Lori that made him look good.

Coming from someone who suggested Chan may be able to edge out for a Bronze medal over the relatively unknown and inexperienced Gachinsky if the Canadian was clean, despite holding the highest TES and PCS records for the season of any men and two times World Silver Medalist on this planet, why am I not surprised you are very capable of continuing your streak of outrageous and logic challenged statements? :rolleye:

Last time I checked, the skates were attached on Chan's feet, not Lori Nichol's, when he skated this season. Plus, many other skaters also had their choreography done by Lori this season yet none of them came close to holding any PCS record in their disciplines. Why? Oh, let me guess, you are going to say - Lori is biased towards Chan because he is her little dear puppy? :unsure: What's next? I can't wait for you next installment of comedy on GS.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I contend that it was Lori that made him look good.

Let me reiterate: Who else can skate this program?

Choreographers have to work with what a skater can bring to the table. Lori has said she only works with what a skater can do at the time even if they want to include something they think they would soon be able to do. She would tell them to bring it when they have it. Then she would incorporate the new element into the program. Skaters and choreographers do have to work together. It's not like a choreographer could just work it out on his/her own and hand over the finished product. Skaters travel to be with their choreographers. They don't sit home and purchase a blueprint. A skater has to be involved at least at certain stages of the design of the choreography and modification is made throughout the season if necessary. Sometimes it's because they are not comfortable with certain parts and other times, such as in Patrick's case, to up the technical difficulties to match his progress. Patrick and Krall had requested at the beginning of the season for Lori to consider the eventual inclusion of 2 quads in the LP. OTOH some skaters are known to have often watered down the choreographies. That they do on their own or with their coaches.

I am sure Lori Nichol is very glad to have Patrick Chan to choreagraph for so both their geniuses are showcased.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Let me reiterate: Who else can skate this program?

Choreographers have to work with what a skater can bring to the table. Lori has said she only works with what a skater can do at the time even if they want to include something they think they would soon be able to do. She would tell them to bring it when they have it. Then she would incorporate the new element into the program. Skaters and choreographers do have to work together. It's not like a choreographer could just work it out on his/her own and hand over the finished product. Skaters travel to be with their choreographers. They don't sit home and purchase a blueprint. A skater has to be involved at least at certain stages of the design of the choreography and modification is made throughout the season if necessary. Sometimes it's because they are not comfortable with certain parts and other times, such as in Patrick's case, to up the technical difficulties to match his progress. Patrick and Krall had requested at the beginning of the season for Lori to consider the eventual inclusion of 2 quads in the LP. OTOH some skaters are known to have often watered down the choreographies. That they do on their own or with their coaches.

I am sure Lori Nichol is very glad to have Patrick Chan to choreagraph for so both their geniuses are showcased.

Case in point, Rachael Flatt is now in Toronto to work with Lori on her choreography, right after 4CC and few weeks before the Worlds.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Case in point, Rachael Flatt is now in Toronto to work with Lori on her choreography, right after 4CC and few weeks before the Worlds.

Do you happen to have any inside dope on what they are working on?

This is one case, in my opinion, where the choreographer and the skater have missed each other a little. The new short program seems to have got them both on the same page. I wonder what changes we might see in the long.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Exciting news. Although I don't really think that program can be saved. I can't abide those cutesy jazzy numbers of Rachael's. Grow up, already, girlfriend.
 

BackStage Barbie

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 22, 2010
Exciting news. Although I don't really think that program can be saved. I can't abide those cutesy jazzy numbers of Rachael's. Grow up, already, girlfriend.

Have you ever been to a Broadway show? Women dance "jazzy numbers" in their 20s, 30s, 4os, 50s, and even older.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Well, I agree with Mathman and Spun. It's not a matter of jazz or how old you can be when you choose jazz numbers. Rachael's LP does not sell. I'm not sure what's she's trying to be - cute? Sexy? Sensual? The program achieves neither. Her new SP on the other hand was one of the best moves a skater has done this season. I think Rachael has a sort of soulfulness and inner glow and just needs to let that shine through. She tries really hard and the acting stuff but it doesn't really bring out Rachael herself.

About Patrick, I also don't see that he skates through his music. In terms of movement itself, he definitely seems to listen to it and hits his notes. The problem is that he is not a natural performer like Daisuke or Ryan so his expression sort of ranges from blank to a little forced. You can see him trying though. From the point of view of competition, I see that as a minor weakness and I agree with Skatefiguring that he if does what he did at nationals he'll be unbeatable at worlds.

Also to be frank, I am not in love with Lori's programs for him. I do think the Phantom of the Opera one has some of those nice intricate moments and accents that Lori is so good at but it's not the most memorable choreo I've ever seen by a long shot. His SP was meant to get him to perform a bit more and while I think Patrick is rather good at some of the whimsy, the overall program gets on my nerves almost as much as Rachael's SP. A matter of taste, I suppose.
 

fscric

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Good skate for Chan! However, The actual layout of the program to the music is done soley by the choreographer. The skater may change the steps because he is unable to manage them at that point in the music, and similarly the transitions into Jumps, In essence, the skater is just tweeking what the choreographer has given.

Choreographers, imo, are the most underrated team members of a skater's competitive performance. What would Chan have looked like if Morosov, or TT had done the choreography. I contend that it was Lori that made him look good.

This is such a strange way to demean Chan's accomplishment. By that logic, every competition is won by the choreographer not the skater including those which were won by the skaters that you love. Or does this logic apply only to Chan?
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
This is such a strange way to demean Chan's accomplishment. By that logic, every competition is won by the choreographer not the skater including those which were won by the skaters that you love. Or does this logic apply only to Chan?
It applies to all, and I think you misunderstood what I am saying. Choreographers good or bad, do not get credit for their work. It has nothing to do with Chan. Chan and ALL others do not lay down the choreographic outline to the music - maybe Bradley does. dunno. Skaters tweek their programs to make them more comfortable.

It's one of those PCs that shouldn't be there along with Skating Abiity. They belong in Performance. JMO.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I agree with Skatefiguring that he if does what he did at nationals he'll be unbeatable at worlds.

Actually I've never said that. Lots of people have though as it seems to be an obvious conclusion by consensus.

I do project Chan's chances of winning the Worlds this year as very high. Yes the ice is slippery but ultimately it's the mental strength that determines how much of a skater's known abilities he will bring on that slippery ice on that day of competition. I see Chan and Takahashi as the two strongest competitors today who can bring their best or close to it when the chips are down, in which case Chan's TES will blow Takahashi away even if Dai performed as well as at last worlds, the difference being the quads - Chan's 3 4Ts vs Takahashi's one underotated and two footed 4F.

Takahashi has the home advantage. He will have rabid crowd support and no jet lag. For the veteran the crowd's crazy love will likely be a tremendous energizer more than a pressure. He would love nothing more than winning the WC at home. He also usually peaks at season's end at the most important competition.

Chan is on a great projectory of his own. Riding on the specular success at the Nationals, which was a culmination of studied hard work, he may still have to peak yet. He has overcome putting the quads in competitions, landing them beautifully and going on to the rest of the programs without adverse after effects. He has figured out the pre-skate mental preparation that works great for him. This season he has also learned how to travel so he is less likely to be dragged down like he used to when competing overseas. He skipped the 4CC so he could be better rested and prepared for Worlds, even though he spent much of recent weeks doing community works in Canada. He still has room to improve that he wants to work on, and we know what he wants he gets, as far as skating techniques are concerned.

I look forward to the showdown. Some other skaters have the skills to surprise though they are not as reliable and driven as Chan and Takahashi at the biggest events. However, they are in the running and cannot be written out. I expect one Canadian and two Japanese at the podium, unless two of the top Men bombed, allowing a dark horse to rise up.
 
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