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Thread: What do you want to see at Worlds for the Men?

  1. #61
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    Here's the CBC version of Patrick Chan's Nationals LP with Kurt Browning commentating.

    I often find more to appreciate in his choreography and musicality with repeated viewing of this program, a masterful collaboration between Lori Nichol and Patrick Chan, all done with the constraint of COP competitiveness. Who else can skate this program?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think Bradley has a good chance to score well -- maybe even above this board's favorite, Dornbush. If he does two quads and two triple Axels, who else in the competition can? Maybe that will carry over into the PCSs enough to overcome his deficit in choreography.
    The "2 Quads + 2 Triple Axels" is a misleading red herring that wouldn't stand up under scrutiny by the Technical Panel. How so? Bradley actually left some points on the table by not maximizing his jump content. Yes, I am not talking about his non-jump elements or his rather poor GOE. Strictly examining the red herring you mentioned, Bradley accumulated a total of 47.5 in Base Value for his jump elements excluding the two Quads. Chan scored a total of 47.83, excluding his Quads, yet with only one Triple Axel vs. Bradley's two. Shocking? Not really. Bradley managed to score lower Base Value on jumps because he didn't utilize his jumping passes as efficiently as Chan. In other words, Chan's program still has room for an additional Quad jump, say the Quad Flip (in lieu of the Double Axel) that his coaching team in Colorado is preparing him for whereas Bradley has exhausted all his jumping passes such that there is not even room for a Double Axel. Chan went around this problem by creating an unusual jump combo that is very rarely done by a man before in competition, Triple Lutz/half loop/Triple Salchow. By combining two jumps that cannot usually be combined, he managed to save a jumping pass which could be used for a Double Axel - a safe option that gathers as much point as a Level 4 CCoSp or he could later move around his elements in the future, and insert a Quad Flip in the program or bring back 2 Triple Axels, with one Quad being Toe Loop and the other, a Flip. Being able to complete all the Triple jumps with one jumping pass left presents a major strategic advantage over an opponent whose jumping passes are already maxed out.

    So despite the red herring, Bradley got outjumped even without considering the Quads, which he didn't execute properly and without considering the rather poor execution on those jumps.

  3. #63
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I didn't say Bradley could outscore Chan. I said he might be able to outscore Dornbush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I didn't say Bradley could outscore Chan. I said he might be able to outscore Dornbush.
    You said: "Who else in the competition can?" This implies he outjumps everyone, no? True or False?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    OTOH, I would like Patrick better if every time I've seen him, he wasn't skating through his music, something I really don't like.
    Doris, can you tell me what you mean by that because I don't see it. He hits every musical climax, he's powerful, he's fast, he has good knees (admittedly not like Oda's but that's a gift of the gods). What's wrong? I love this young man. He's not the most dramatic guy out there, he's more like a Balanchine dancer - the beautiful technique and musicality speak for themselves - but there's not much on this earth more beautiful than Balanchine. I imagine he'll become more dramatic over time. I think he has his priorities right. First things first.

    Wallylutz, thanks for the HD vid.

  6. #66
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    You said: "Who else in the competition can?" This implies he outjumps everyone, no? True or False?
    What I meant to say was, if Bradley lands all of his big jumps (especially if no one else does), that could mitigate some of his weaknesses and pull his score up into the "respectable" range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Doris, can you tell me what you mean by that because I don't see it.
    I'm not Doris, but here is my two cents.

    I think that at the beginning of the season Patrick's choreography contained so much detail that it seemed like he was rushing the music to work everything in.

    At Worlds, I look forward to seeing him settle into the grove and let the music come to him.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Here's the CBC version of Patrick Chan's Nationals LP with Kurt Browning commentating.

    I often find more to appreciate in his choreography and musicality with repeated viewing of this program, a masterful collaboration between Lori Nichol and Patrick Chan, all done with the constraint of COP competitiveness. Who else can skate this program?
    Good skate for Chan! However, The actual layout of the program to the music is done soley by the choreographer. The skater may change the steps because he is unable to manage them at that point in the music, and similarly the transitions into Jumps, In essence, the skater is just tweeking what the choreographer has given.

    Choreographers, imo, are the most underrated team members of a skater's competitive performance. What would Chan have looked like if Morosov, or TT had done the choreography. I contend that it was Lori that made him look good.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Choreographers, imo, are the most underrated team members of a skater's competitive performance. What would Chan have looked like if Morosov, or TT had done the choreography. I contend that it was Lori that made him look good.
    Coming from someone who suggested Chan may be able to edge out for a Bronze medal over the relatively unknown and inexperienced Gachinsky if the Canadian was clean, despite holding the highest TES and PCS records for the season of any men and two times World Silver Medalist on this planet, why am I not surprised you are very capable of continuing your streak of outrageous and logic challenged statements?

    Last time I checked, the skates were attached on Chan's feet, not Lori Nichol's, when he skated this season. Plus, many other skaters also had their choreography done by Lori this season yet none of them came close to holding any PCS record in their disciplines. Why? Oh, let me guess, you are going to say - Lori is biased towards Chan because he is her little dear puppy? What's next? I can't wait for you next installment of comedy on GS.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I contend that it was Lori that made him look good.
    Let me reiterate: Who else can skate this program?

    Choreographers have to work with what a skater can bring to the table. Lori has said she only works with what a skater can do at the time even if they want to include something they think they would soon be able to do. She would tell them to bring it when they have it. Then she would incorporate the new element into the program. Skaters and choreographers do have to work together. It's not like a choreographer could just work it out on his/her own and hand over the finished product. Skaters travel to be with their choreographers. They don't sit home and purchase a blueprint. A skater has to be involved at least at certain stages of the design of the choreography and modification is made throughout the season if necessary. Sometimes it's because they are not comfortable with certain parts and other times, such as in Patrick's case, to up the technical difficulties to match his progress. Patrick and Krall had requested at the beginning of the season for Lori to consider the eventual inclusion of 2 quads in the LP. OTOH some skaters are known to have often watered down the choreographies. That they do on their own or with their coaches.

    I am sure Lori Nichol is very glad to have Patrick Chan to choreagraph for so both their geniuses are showcased.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Let me reiterate: Who else can skate this program?

    Choreographers have to work with what a skater can bring to the table. Lori has said she only works with what a skater can do at the time even if they want to include something they think they would soon be able to do. She would tell them to bring it when they have it. Then she would incorporate the new element into the program. Skaters and choreographers do have to work together. It's not like a choreographer could just work it out on his/her own and hand over the finished product. Skaters travel to be with their choreographers. They don't sit home and purchase a blueprint. A skater has to be involved at least at certain stages of the design of the choreography and modification is made throughout the season if necessary. Sometimes it's because they are not comfortable with certain parts and other times, such as in Patrick's case, to up the technical difficulties to match his progress. Patrick and Krall had requested at the beginning of the season for Lori to consider the eventual inclusion of 2 quads in the LP. OTOH some skaters are known to have often watered down the choreographies. That they do on their own or with their coaches.

    I am sure Lori Nichol is very glad to have Patrick Chan to choreagraph for so both their geniuses are showcased.
    Case in point, Rachael Flatt is now in Toronto to work with Lori on her choreography, right after 4CC and few weeks before the Worlds.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Case in point, Rachael Flatt is now in Toronto to work with Lori on her choreography, right after 4CC and few weeks before the Worlds.
    Do you happen to have any inside dope on what they are working on?

    This is one case, in my opinion, where the choreographer and the skater have missed each other a little. The new short program seems to have got them both on the same page. I wonder what changes we might see in the long.

  12. #72
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    Exciting news. Although I don't really think that program can be saved. I can't abide those cutesy jazzy numbers of Rachael's. Grow up, already, girlfriend.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Exciting news. Although I don't really think that program can be saved. I can't abide those cutesy jazzy numbers of Rachael's. Grow up, already, girlfriend.
    Have you ever been to a Broadway show? Women dance "jazzy numbers" in their 20s, 30s, 4os, 50s, and even older.

  14. #74
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    Alas!

  15. #75
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackStage Barbie View Post
    Have you ever been to a Broadway show? Women dance "jazzy numbers" in their 20s, 30s, 4os, 50s, and even older.
    Indeed.

    Clearly she has never seen the dance troupe Tap Sensation.

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