What do you want to see at Worlds for the Men?
- Thread starter museksk8r
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I totally agree with you, Mathman.
Treeloving, I am afraid I cannot talk on behalf of Japanese skaters and summarise why they prioritise difficult jumps (rotation-wise, let me emphasise again ... as flutzing seems to be common amongst Japanese skaters and if the focus is on 'difficulty', then they should have sorted it out long time ago!)
I also do not think it is an exclusively Japanese trait either - perhaps it is because there are so many of them in GPS and Championships that they stand out? European girls have a go at 3-3 combo (and occasionally land), Stephen Carriere tried a quad in Skate America this season and took me by surprise. Patrick's quad is no way near as reliable as let's say Kevin van Der Perren's in GPS but he put it in anyway. Last season, Oda, whose gorgeous quad and quad combo were regularly witnessed in practice sessions, never really attempted one in competitions (only at Japan Nats and he fell). Japan also had a world champ without great jumping ability but with everything else - Yuka Sato. Akiko Suzuki's strength and priority are not jumps either.
If you allow me to simplify, I thinks there are roughly three camps, in which we can categorise those skaters who attempt the difficult jumps regardless of success rate;
Using Japanese skaters as examples;
I think Miki in 2009 was the case #1; despite her coach's repeated encouragement, she herself lacked in confidence, and believed she needed her jumps to win. This seems to have changed drastically last season, she concentrated on her presentation side and gained confidence from her relative success. I put Yuzuru Hanyu in this category too. This is his first senior season and he could not rely on PCS, which was low in GPS, and he had nothing to loose. (having solid 3A also made it easier for him to go for the quad though) Machida, Mura, Haruka Imai are the same. They have no choice but to jump. Mao last season may have been feeling like this too, as she needed 3A to compete with Yu-Na.
Kozuka and Oda (this season) seems be the case #2. Both of them land the quad regularly in practice, so all is left for them to do is to nail it in competitions.
Daisuke may be the case #3. As well as his personal quest for the quad, I am sure he kind of knows that he can afford to fail to some extent, as he is a so-called complete package and has means to make up the points lost. He seems to be now aware though, that he needs the quad to be on the level playing field with Patrick.
Talking about Yuzuru - he at the beginning of the season said the quad is what separates the senior skaters from the juniors. He in reality needed the quad just to compete with those who are expected to be in the final flight of Japan Nats - all have the quad or nearly do in their arsenals. (Daisuke Murakami, Japanese No 7 man, fell but rotated 4S at Universiade BTW.)
However, his focus is not only on the quad - in the recent interview, he said he had been overwhelmed and fascinated by Patrick's skating skills, which he witnessed with his own eyes during the practice at COR. He now calls Patrick as his role model in skating skills. How he described his admiration was rather funny and cute - he said he wanted Patrick to give him a piggyback and skate, so that he could learn how to do it, and he was afraid if they'd hold and skate together like ice dancers, he would fall by trying to keep up with Patrick. He said he'd then even imitated Patrick a bit and went for deeper edges than usual during the warm-up and was surprised that it gave him much more speed. He now says that Plushenko is his hero, Johnny his idol, Tod his textbook, Patrick his role model - the young boy wants everything!
Treeloving, I am afraid I cannot talk on behalf of Japanese skaters and summarise why they prioritise difficult jumps (rotation-wise, let me emphasise again ... as flutzing seems to be common amongst Japanese skaters and if the focus is on 'difficulty', then they should have sorted it out long time ago!)
I also do not think it is an exclusively Japanese trait either - perhaps it is because there are so many of them in GPS and Championships that they stand out? European girls have a go at 3-3 combo (and occasionally land), Stephen Carriere tried a quad in Skate America this season and took me by surprise. Patrick's quad is no way near as reliable as let's say Kevin van Der Perren's in GPS but he put it in anyway. Last season, Oda, whose gorgeous quad and quad combo were regularly witnessed in practice sessions, never really attempted one in competitions (only at Japan Nats and he fell). Japan also had a world champ without great jumping ability but with everything else - Yuka Sato. Akiko Suzuki's strength and priority are not jumps either.
If you allow me to simplify, I thinks there are roughly three camps, in which we can categorise those skaters who attempt the difficult jumps regardless of success rate;
- those who have to otherwise they have no chance of winning / medalling / being on the higher placement - because of low PCS, weak footwork, spins, etc;
- those who have a good success rate during practice and need to get used to put one in when it counts; and
- those who can afford to fail as they have other things in thier arsenal to compensate - high PCS, strong footwork, spins, etc.
Using Japanese skaters as examples;
I think Miki in 2009 was the case #1; despite her coach's repeated encouragement, she herself lacked in confidence, and believed she needed her jumps to win. This seems to have changed drastically last season, she concentrated on her presentation side and gained confidence from her relative success. I put Yuzuru Hanyu in this category too. This is his first senior season and he could not rely on PCS, which was low in GPS, and he had nothing to loose. (having solid 3A also made it easier for him to go for the quad though) Machida, Mura, Haruka Imai are the same. They have no choice but to jump. Mao last season may have been feeling like this too, as she needed 3A to compete with Yu-Na.
Kozuka and Oda (this season) seems be the case #2. Both of them land the quad regularly in practice, so all is left for them to do is to nail it in competitions.
Daisuke may be the case #3. As well as his personal quest for the quad, I am sure he kind of knows that he can afford to fail to some extent, as he is a so-called complete package and has means to make up the points lost. He seems to be now aware though, that he needs the quad to be on the level playing field with Patrick.
Talking about Yuzuru - he at the beginning of the season said the quad is what separates the senior skaters from the juniors. He in reality needed the quad just to compete with those who are expected to be in the final flight of Japan Nats - all have the quad or nearly do in their arsenals. (Daisuke Murakami, Japanese No 7 man, fell but rotated 4S at Universiade BTW.)
However, his focus is not only on the quad - in the recent interview, he said he had been overwhelmed and fascinated by Patrick's skating skills, which he witnessed with his own eyes during the practice at COR. He now calls Patrick as his role model in skating skills. How he described his admiration was rather funny and cute - he said he wanted Patrick to give him a piggyback and skate, so that he could learn how to do it, and he was afraid if they'd hold and skate together like ice dancers, he would fall by trying to keep up with Patrick. He said he'd then even imitated Patrick a bit and went for deeper edges than usual during the warm-up and was surprised that it gave him much more speed. He now says that Plushenko is his hero, Johnny his idol, Tod his textbook, Patrick his role model - the young boy wants everything!
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- Jan 7, 2011
I googled the word as I had never come across it ... Blimey... Gob-smacked that some people's imagination could stretch that far. Hope they remember he's just turned 16 and leave the poor kid alone.
1. Patrick Chan
2. Daisuke Takahashi
3. Florent Amodio
4. Takahiko Kozuka
5. Tomas Verner
6. Nobunari Oda
7. Brian Joubert
8. Richard Dornbush
9. Ross Miner
Alot of these guys have been unpredictable. I guess the results could turn out MUCH differently
On Bradley, I can easily see Dornbush and Miner beating him. IMO, I don't think Bradley is that great in artistry. He has great personality, but his PCS weren't even that high at U.S nats. Internationaly, they could be even lower.
2. Daisuke Takahashi
3. Florent Amodio
4. Takahiko Kozuka
5. Tomas Verner
6. Nobunari Oda
7. Brian Joubert
8. Richard Dornbush
9. Ross Miner
Alot of these guys have been unpredictable. I guess the results could turn out MUCH differently
On Bradley, I can easily see Dornbush and Miner beating him. IMO, I don't think Bradley is that great in artistry. He has great personality, but his PCS weren't even that high at U.S nats. Internationaly, they could be even lower.
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Hi Mot
Yeah!! Exactly!! That is a true choreographic masterpiece done by Kenji Miyamoto.
I am so happy to find a person like you. I showed it to some of my American friends and they said something like," Is he gay?" Common, why can you not appreciate art like that?
Re Quad, I would like to add one thing about Dai.
Dai used to land two beautiful quads in one program before injury. He said in the interview, " I used to do two quads in one program, so at least I will have to come back to that level or even exceed it."
This may explain his strong quest for quads.
Yeah!! Exactly!! That is a true choreographic masterpiece done by Kenji Miyamoto.
I am so happy to find a person like you. I showed it to some of my American friends and they said something like," Is he gay?" Common, why can you not appreciate art like that?
Re Quad, I would like to add one thing about Dai.
Dai used to land two beautiful quads in one program before injury. He said in the interview, " I used to do two quads in one program, so at least I will have to come back to that level or even exceed it."
This may explain his strong quest for quads.
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- Nov 19, 2010
mot, very interesting information. I'd love to comment on it but it's so OT, starting from my question for you. I'd like to take it to a new thread but don't have an appropriete thread title for it. I like to analyse mindsets and assess the skaters from where their heads are at. I need to know what to call the subject. :think:
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- Feb 17, 2010
Thank you so much Mot for your detail reply, it is very interesting to read.
Yuzuru is so cute. It make me smile when I read this. The young boy want everything and the things will make him to be Olympic champion!
Wish he has more inspiration watching world at home so his style will be combination of many great skater! (does this make my post a bit less out of topic)
I really cannot imagine Yuzuru and Patrick.
Talking about Yuzuru - he at the beginning of the season said the quad is what separates the senior skaters from the juniors. He in reality needed the quad just to compete with those who are expected to be in the final flight of Japan Nats - all have the quad or nearly do in their arsenals. (Daisuke Murakami, Japanese No 7 man, fell but rotated 4S at Universiade BTW.)
However, his focus is not only on the quad - in the recent interview, he said he had been overwhelmed and fascinated by Patrick's skating skills, which he witnessed with his own eyes during the practice at COR. He now calls Patrick as his role model in skating skills. How he described his admiration was rather funny and cute - he said he wanted Patrick to give him a piggyback and skate, so that he could learn how to do it, and he was afraid if they'd hold and skate together like ice dancers, he would fall by trying to keep up with Patrick. He said he'd then even imitated Patrick a bit and went for deeper edges than usual during the warm-up and was surprised that it gave him much more speed. He now says that Plushenko is his hero, Johnny his idol, Tod his textbook, Patrick his role model - the young boy wants everything!
Yuzuru is so cute. It make me smile when I read this. The young boy want everything and the things will make him to be Olympic champion!
Wish he has more inspiration watching world at home so his style will be combination of many great skater! (does this make my post a bit less out of topic
) I really cannot imagine Yuzuru and Patrick.- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
I started a new thread, Winning Ways, in The Edge, to continue this interesting but OT discussion.
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- Jun 16, 2010
If Chan doesnt skate half the program on hîs pants, or for that matter even if he does at this point, he has the gold in the bag.
So it makes sense to talk about the actual competition taking place which is for the silver, bronze, and downwards.
I think if Takahashi skates his best he would win the silver despite his somewhat diminished technical skills. However he has been inconsistent. I dont think Kozuka is as loved by international judges as National. So he will have to skate his best to win a medal. If he does I predict he will though since the other top men are inconsistent this year. Oda I think is the least likely to medal of the 3 Japanese men right now though he is also a threat.
Joubert can only medal this year by skating 2 clean programs. He wont generous PCS or GOE at this point, and his base values dont tend to be the highest.
Verner can maybe medal with minor mistakes, but also would need to skate close to his best.
Amodio I think actually has a better chance than Joubert right now.
Brezina could be a medal threat if he retains his level of last year.
I dont see the U.S men retaining 3 spots, but they should retain 2. Sawyer will need one of his best competitions ever to get to the 12th place needed for Canada to retain 3 spots.
So it makes sense to talk about the actual competition taking place which is for the silver, bronze, and downwards.
I think if Takahashi skates his best he would win the silver despite his somewhat diminished technical skills. However he has been inconsistent. I dont think Kozuka is as loved by international judges as National. So he will have to skate his best to win a medal. If he does I predict he will though since the other top men are inconsistent this year. Oda I think is the least likely to medal of the 3 Japanese men right now though he is also a threat.
Joubert can only medal this year by skating 2 clean programs. He wont generous PCS or GOE at this point, and his base values dont tend to be the highest.
Verner can maybe medal with minor mistakes, but also would need to skate close to his best.
Amodio I think actually has a better chance than Joubert right now.
Brezina could be a medal threat if he retains his level of last year.
I dont see the U.S men retaining 3 spots, but they should retain 2. Sawyer will need one of his best competitions ever to get to the 12th place needed for Canada to retain 3 spots.
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What I want to see is the 3 Americans retaining 3 spots for 2012 & I hope that at least one of them medals.
Wonder if now that Andrie has won the Jr Worlds if Patrick's chances have gone down a bit. Would they powers that be want both men's champs to come from Canada?
I also hope that Bradley does not get held up simply because he is the American Champ. It certianly would not be the first time!
I also hope that Bradley does not get held up simply because he is the American Champ. It certianly would not be the first time!
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When has the ISU ever "held up" Bradley's score? 18th place last time he was at Worlds????
Or is this a complaint about Evan being held up?
18th place last time he was at Worlds????Or is this a complaint about Evan being held up?
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- Feb 25, 2006
Definitely not for the first one. If Chan can win with four falls, then they're not going to take him out of winning position just because of what another guy did.
I don't think so about Bradley either. Abbott was never held up at Olympics or Worlds for being the American champion, IMO.
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Mao Asada. Daisuke Takahashi. Kanako Murakami. Yuzuru Hanyu.
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Firstly, I do not expect to see anything from the Men I haven't seen before. There will be no quints!
I would have liked to see Hanyu but I'll wait for next season. Dai, Nobi, and Taki, I know well.
And I know Amodio, but just looking to see if Brian kicks it up a notch.
Verner will have to keep it steady, and Brezina should not knock himself out here.
Gachinsky could pull it off, but I have to see it to believe it.
Easy win for Chan if he skates a steady no mistake routine. I'll be looking for that.
I'll be looking for at least one of the American boys to skate solid and place top 10.
I would have liked to see Hanyu but I'll wait for next season. Dai, Nobi, and Taki, I know well.
And I know Amodio, but just looking to see if Brian kicks it up a notch.
Verner will have to keep it steady, and Brezina should not knock himself out here.
Gachinsky could pull it off, but I have to see it to believe it.
Easy win for Chan if he skates a steady no mistake routine. I'll be looking for that.
I'll be looking for at least one of the American boys to skate solid and place top 10.
Jeremy was never "held up" for being the American champion. Why would Ryan be?Similar threads
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