What do you want to see at Worlds for the Men?

[Ravensque]

Patrick was adding quads to two very difficult programs at the beginning of the season, and fitting them in (in competition) was something that was just going to take time, and eventually he has been able to do that with growing consistency each time out. His actual skating is so awsome it carried him, and also his recovery was very speedy whenever he fell that it hardly made an impact on the program. I hope he just continues to improve and wow his supporters and even his detractors....although some are going to put him down and detract whatever he does on the ice. For me, whatever happens at worlds, I'll just enjoy whatever he puts out there.............but I sure do hope he can repeat his Nats performance as that was the best FS I'd ever seen...It was just magical.

[SkateFiguring]

mot, can you explain for me something about Takahashi from a cultural perspective?

As you can see from the Quads Of The Season list I've compliled, Dai has a very poor record in his quad attempts this season. He has had just one success and the rest cost him so much directly and indirectly. He is much better off doing triples and even doubles than trying for quads. I know he has problems with 4T due to his knee injury so he's trying 4F, which is very smart because the GOE penalty is lighter relative to that for a 4T. Still, with the miserable success rate he's had, it's just not worth it and it hurts his overall scores and medal chances substantially.

Why does he insist on doing it? I feel the Japanese skaters, male and female, are pressured to do the hardest jumps, whether or not it's a good strategy. Could it be because of the tradition initiated by the great successful Japanese skating pioneers like Midori Ito, or other aspect of Japanese culture that place such importance on quad attempts?

eta I am especially interested in whether there is more pressure on someone with a hero status like Daisuke or if the same demand is made on all capable skaters? Unlike some earlier Japanese great jumpers, Daisuke is all round and the PCS king, so why is doing a quad in competition imperative?

[ImaginaryPogue]

^^^^
Sorry about that, but one skate does not do it for me. It does impress me though, and I want to view the skater with another competition. In my case it wil be the World Championship.

Fair enough. Lets remove names and focus strictly on numbers.

Skater X has the highest international score of the season, with approximately 10-11 points separating him from Skater Y (skaters Z and A are fifteen and twenty points behind, approx).

Skater X has the highest international score AVERAGE of the season, with approximately 7 points separating him from the averages calculated for skater Y and Z.

Skater X, Y, Z and A are separated by 11 points in terms of averages. The next skater (skaters B and C) are about eight points behind that top group.

You predict two skaters, Joesitz. Skater D and Skater E

Skater D's HIGH score is:
four points lower than Skater X's LOWEST score.
matched by Skater Y's LOWEST score.
is three points lower than Skater Z's lowest score
is four points HIGHER than Skater A's lowest score

Skater E's HIGH score is:
11 points lower than Skater X's LOWEST score.
7 points lower than Skater Y's LOWEST score.
is 10 points lower than Skater Z's lowest score
is three points lower than Skater A's lowest score

Skater X, at a competition not considered for international scores, had the cleanest skate of his season. He had the most technically difficult base value of the season, which topped his own most technically difficult base value posted at his best international event.

[mot]

SkateFiguring, let me try...

Yes, Japanese media do focus on so-called harder jumps, meaning rotation wise - I mean I do not think they know much about the difference between let's say lutz and sal. But I do not think there is pressure put on the skaters by them. The federation, coaches and teams are also not silly enough to take the media too seriously. Having said that, it is only quite recently that Japanese skaters become highly regarded for their artistic sides not only for their jumps, it is possible that in the training there has traditionally been stronger emphasis on mastering jumps when skaters are young. (The same way, there seems to be stronger focus on basic skating skills in the North America and more balletic training in Russia in general.)

I can also add something from Daisuke's personal view to answer your query. He explained the reason why he continues to try on quads regardless of rather poor success rate for the last couple of seasons as follows;

1. He started competing in the senior rank when it was considered not possible to win Men's competition without putting in quads - not only one but multiple of them if poss. The idea has stuck with him, he said - the true Men's champion for him was the one with the quad.
2. He used to be able to include two quads in a programme (07-08 season in which he landed them successfully at Japan Nats and the 4CC). According to his own words, for him to say he has truly returned to his former self after the injury, it is necessary to get back to that level technically.
3. He believes the only way to nail the quad in the competition is to keep on trying it in competitions regardless of the success rate. (This attitude seems to be shared by Kozuka - I think he has included the quad in his long programmes before he landed one for the first time - though two-footed - at the Olys for two seasons without a single success?)
4. Funnily enough, he said he does not like the quad as a jump and he would not therefore try it in the exhibitions and shows. He goes for the quad because it is in the spirit of competitive sport that one always trys the best they can. Ah, allegedly someone - perhaps from the federation? - suggested he should NOT include the quad in the free at the Vancouver Olys to secure a podium finish - a suggestion he ignored.

So it seems all personal.

You may still call it Japanese cultural aspect of his quest for the quad - that it is all about personal attitude. Culturally speaking, we do regard one's path to and/or quest for success as highly as success itself.

Hope this gives you some insight.

PS. I have a suspicion that his true love maybe Ice Dance - he said he had picked Pasquale Camerlongo as his choreographer because he really liked what he created for Derobel / Schoenfelder. Also he said in his recent interview, when he saw the top 3 dancers in the Nagano Olympics at the age of 12, he was so impressed by them that he just wanted to skate like them - not Ilia, not Stjko, not Phillippe, but Grishk/ Platov, Krylova / Ovsyannikov and Anissina /Peizerat. Funny, isn't it - considering his seeming fascination with the quad? But his love for Ice dance may have contributed greatly to his artistic side and PCS.

[genki]

I have a suspicion that his true love maybe Ice Dance

Hi Mot. Haqjimemashite:
I am Japanese too, living in US.
I guess your suspicion is right. He said somewhere long time ago, that if he has a choice between dance/pair, he said he would choose dance.
He also said in a variety show that if he is not a skater, he would probably be a dancer.

Hope he would do latin dance or something after he retires. I dance ballrroom, so it is my dream to see sexy Latin dance on the floor from Dai !!

[SkateFiguring]

Well, Dai can always do ice shows with emphasis on his fabulous dance steps and hot performances when he retires from competitions. He will be so loved and in demand.

I have felt that there is a value placed on trying those quads higher than scores and winning. It is a compelling honour worth the price or sacrifice if the goal is not achieved. It may be personal, but personal values are generally influenced and nurtured by society. What is interesting is that though it may be manly or macho for Dai to hold such belief, the top female skater, Mao, also seems compelled to do her 3A. That's why I thought there may be a more broad based value system that makes trying to achieve the most respected element in the sport extremely important, reflecting the skater's character, especially as a role model.

I remember how cute Dai was meeting, and being star struck by, Kumakawa. He said he almost fell in love! Maybe now he knows how his fans feel about him!

[Layfan]

Daisuke usually seems to be able to get himself together even after falling on the quad and deliver the rest of the program well. He gets the audience going and makes them forget about the fall. So from the perspective, I've always thought, yeah, go for it. It seems to give him confidence just to try it.

[mot]

Hi genki,

I am also an ex-pat, living on the other side of the Atlantic from you. I am always very envious that figure skating receives much more media coverage over on your side than here in the UK, which is a real pity considering the long successful history of figure skating in this country, and also a big contribution it had on the sport - well, up until a few decades ago. My love affair with figure skating started with T&D.

I would love Daisuke to try something like Bachelorette again - it was the programme which took my fascination with him to another level, as a skater who has something terribly unique. Never seen anything like it performed by a male single skater before or since.

SkateFiguring, perhaps I am going off the topic too much, but I thought I'd better clarify further...

I suspect Daisuke and Mao could somehow get away with their not-always-successful pursuit for the quad and the triple axel, as they still managed to get the results. Miki on the other hand suffered a massive media bashing when her failed attempt on the quad sal costed her higher placement at the Torino Olympics. (Poor soul - the media still wants to know the season after the season whether she would try the quad sal again though. Here goes again, the country's fascination with rotations!) At the same Olympics, Shizuka did not put in her triple-triple combination, which she was capable of, in her gold-medal-winning performance and was never really criticised for it - everyone was congratulatory on her beautiful, flawless performance and the GOLD MEDAL! (I must add here that it was very wise of her not to attempt it just for the sake of it, because it was clear in her own mind that her goal was to win the gold so that she could be on the advantageous starting point for her career as a pro skater, which she much preferred to be than a competitive one. And I LOVE and praise her to bits for it.)

Sad to admit, but if Daisuke had sunk again down in the 8th because of his failed quad attempt in 2010, like he did in 2006, I cannot tell whether his 'personal' attitude would have been equally praised or not. (Yes, 'he was the MAN!' was the sentiment widely shared by the Japanese population after the Vancouver Olys - because he won the bronze despite the failed quad, I believe.) I mean his decision to pursue the quad was, I presume, culturally-based / influenced as I have written previously, but whether it was socially accepted / praised or not could have been depending on the result. As a fan, I am glad he delivered the result.

[dlgpffps]

I want to see a podium with Patrick, Daisuke and Kozuka, all three clean (order doesn't really matter, but it would be nice to see a Japanese man crowned on home turf). I'd like to see Daisuke land that quad of his. I wouldn't mind if he won without it, but it would be a victorious (and vindicating) moment for him and his home fans if he won gold WITH that elusive quad. I'd also love to see Patrick replicate his AMAZING Nationals performance!

I'm not sure if Michael Brezina's going to be in this competition, but if he is I want him to be fantabulous. In my little world, he's already been crowned as a Sochi favorite because he combines clean and gorgeous jumps with personality on ice. I am in love with his toe jumps.

[treeloving]

DearMot,

I'm not Japanese so there would be no way I know about Japan more than you. But if the concern about quad is personal thing or media thing, could you pleae kindly explain why it seems that many top Japan skates put the difficult jump as their priority. For example, beside Dai, I remember Miki wanted to do do 3-3 at world 2009 but Morozov doesn't her to do it and told her to focus on performance instead. After she got bronze I remember Miki said something about how she use to only concern on jump or something like that.

This case seems to be the same with Yuzuru as it seems that he put quad as his priority and when the media did a documentary about him, they seems to choose the theme "quad"(but this may be just the work of media right?). Anyway, from his interview this season it seems that he focus a lot on quad. Also, top five men from Japan now attemp Quad.

Moreover, we often hear story on Mao and her 3A.

I know that every skaters like to have difficult content if they can do it as it will be their adventage but it seems for Japanese skater to attemp difficult jump,even they are not sure they can do it 100% or not, is very important thing.

By my experience associate with Japanese, compare to lazy person like me, they are very hard working toward their goal, determinded, and try to do the best they can. It may be a bit stereotype but can this help explain their concentate on the jump. I'm not trying to say it is a good thing or bad thing but it just my curiosity to learn more about different culture.

Sorry to be out of topic on what do you want to see at world.

[Mathman]

I think there are individuals in every culture who go for broke and others who take a more calculated path to their goals.

[mot]

I totally agree with you, Mathman.

Treeloving, I am afraid I cannot talk on behalf of Japanese skaters and summarise why they prioritise difficult jumps (rotation-wise, let me emphasise again ... as flutzing seems to be common amongst Japanese skaters and if the focus is on 'difficulty', then they should have sorted it out long time ago!)

I also do not think it is an exclusively Japanese trait either - perhaps it is because there are so many of them in GPS and Championships that they stand out? European girls have a go at 3-3 combo (and occasionally land), Stephen Carriere tried a quad in Skate America this season and took me by surprise. Patrick's quad is no way near as reliable as let's say Kevin van Der Perren's in GPS but he put it in anyway. Last season, Oda, whose gorgeous quad and quad combo were regularly witnessed in practice sessions, never really attempted one in competitions (only at Japan Nats and he fell). Japan also had a world champ without great jumping ability but with everything else - Yuka Sato. Akiko Suzuki's strength and priority are not jumps either.

If you allow me to simplify, I thinks there are roughly three camps, in which we can categorise those skaters who attempt the difficult jumps regardless of success rate;

1. those who have to otherwise they have no chance of winning / medalling / being on the higher placement - because of low PCS, weak footwork, spins, etc;
2. those who have a good success rate during practice and need to get used to put one in when it counts; and
3. those who can afford to fail as they have other things in thier arsenal to compensate - high PCS, strong footwork, spins, etc.

Using Japanese skaters as examples;

I think Miki in 2009 was the case #1; despite her coach's repeated encouragement, she herself lacked in confidence, and believed she needed her jumps to win. This seems to have changed drastically last season, she concentrated on her presentation side and gained confidence from her relative success. I put Yuzuru Hanyu in this category too. This is his first senior season and he could not rely on PCS, which was low in GPS, and he had nothing to loose. (having solid 3A also made it easier for him to go for the quad though) Machida, Mura, Haruka Imai are the same. They have no choice but to jump. Mao last season may have been feeling like this too, as she needed 3A to compete with Yu-Na.

Kozuka and Oda (this season) seems be the case #2. Both of them land the quad regularly in practice, so all is left for them to do is to nail it in competitions.

Daisuke may be the case #3. As well as his personal quest for the quad, I am sure he kind of knows that he can afford to fail to some extent, as he is a so-called complete package and has means to make up the points lost. He seems to be now aware though, that he needs the quad to be on the level playing field with Patrick.

Talking about Yuzuru - he at the beginning of the season said the quad is what separates the senior skaters from the juniors. He in reality needed the quad just to compete with those who are expected to be in the final flight of Japan Nats - all have the quad or nearly do in their arsenals. (Daisuke Murakami, Japanese No 7 man, fell but rotated 4S at Universiade BTW.)
However, his focus is not only on the quad - in the recent interview, he said he had been overwhelmed and fascinated by Patrick's skating skills, which he witnessed with his own eyes during the practice at COR. He now calls Patrick as his role model in skating skills. How he described his admiration was rather funny and cute - he said he wanted Patrick to give him a piggyback and skate, so that he could learn how to do it, and he was afraid if they'd hold and skate together like ice dancers, he would fall by trying to keep up with Patrick. He said he'd then even imitated Patrick a bit and went for deeper edges than usual during the warm-up and was surprised that it gave him much more speed. He now says that Plushenko is his hero, Johnny his idol, Tod his textbook, Patrick his role model - the young boy wants everything!

[Serious Business]

How he described his admiration was rather funny and cute - he said he wanted Patrick to give him a piggyback and skate, so that he could learn how to do it

That is going to inspire a few slashfics.

[mot]

That is going to inspire a few slashfics.

I googled the word as I had never come across it ... Blimey... Gob-smacked that some people's imagination could stretch that far. Hope they remember he's just turned 16 and leave the poor kid alone.

[ljaeren]

1. Patrick Chan
2. Daisuke Takahashi
3. Florent Amodio
4. Takahiko Kozuka
5. Tomas Verner
6. Nobunari Oda
7. Brian Joubert
8. Richard Dornbush
9. Ross Miner
Alot of these guys have been unpredictable. I guess the results could turn out MUCH differently
On Bradley, I can easily see Dornbush and Miner beating him. IMO, I don't think Bradley is that great in artistry. He has great personality, but his PCS weren't even that high at U.S nats. Internationaly, they could be even lower.