Whom Do You See on the Worlds Podium?
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
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- Mar 24, 2010
I could not disagree more, skating skills is how skilled you are at skating. That includes the second the skater first moves until the skater ends. It includes everything you said as well as jumps. If if didn't there would only be ice dancing and a seperate jumping competition. If Patrick Chan fell 4 times in one competition he obviously didn't have fabulous skiting skills at that particular competition and it should have been reflected in the skating skills part of the PCS. Same for any skater at any competition.
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- Jun 3, 2009
PCS for Skating Skills
Nobunari Oda
Skate America LP (one fall): 8.29
Skate Canada LP (one fall): 7.96
Grand Prix Final LP (two falls): 8.14
Daisuke Takahashi
NHK LP (no falls): 8.39
Skate America LP (one fall): 8.46
Grand Prix Final LP (two falls): 8.32
Four Continents LP (one fall): 8.29
Jeremy Abbott
NHK LP (no falls): 7.79
CoR LP (two falls): 7.89
Denis Ten
NHK LP (three falls): 6.25
Skate America LP (five falls): 6.43
I could go look up more, but I think that the judges are clearly not incorporating falls on elements in PCS in Skating Skills.
Nobunari Oda
Skate America LP (one fall): 8.29
Skate Canada LP (one fall): 7.96
Grand Prix Final LP (two falls): 8.14
Daisuke Takahashi
NHK LP (no falls): 8.39
Skate America LP (one fall): 8.46
Grand Prix Final LP (two falls): 8.32
Four Continents LP (one fall): 8.29
Jeremy Abbott
NHK LP (no falls): 7.79
CoR LP (two falls): 7.89
Denis Ten
NHK LP (three falls): 6.25
Skate America LP (five falls): 6.43
I could go look up more, but I think that the judges are clearly not incorporating falls on elements in PCS in Skating Skills.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
A few posts above, BurntBREAD has already brought over the defination of Skating Skills as spelled out by ISU and how SS are judged. Why argue with me?
In COP system, each element and component is judged separately. A fall incurs its hefty penalties. Do you think a skater's marks for his spins should be deducted if he has a fall from a jump? Skating Skills is a separatly judged component, just as a spin is.
SS is worth about 10% of the total score and on its own doesn't win a competition. Point differnces among top skaters are usually less than one, factored into less than 2 points in LP. In SC, Chan's SS was 0.18 point over Oda's in the SP and, in the LP where they each had a fall, Chan's SS is 0.58 X 2 = 1.16 over Oda's. The total diference is 1.34 for which Chan has been bashed over for months and likely forever.
I think many people confuse the "Skating" part of Skating Skills as the performance of an entire skating program, as in how a pregram is "skated". Therefore, falls means bad skating, and bad Skating Skills. But it ain't so in scoring a competitive program, or else someone skating an easy program will easily win over a skater with difficult jump content.
Any way, why are you dwelling on one competition from early in the season? Do you still consider Patrick Chan as having poor skating skills? Should PCS be increased proportionately with jump success?
Eta. Good illustration, IPogue! Nothing like facts to spoil myths.
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- Joined
- Mar 24, 2010
A fall is a fall no matter on what element it happens, a spin, a man throwing his partner or a jump; as it should. I am not dwelling on ONE competition or ONE skater I said ANY SKATER, ANY COMPETITION. Skating skills is assessed on how well a skater skates, if they spend part of the time on their butt, knee, thigh, hands or any other part of their body expect their blade, no, they do not have good Skating Skills. I couldn't care less if their are considered the best skater to ever take the ice, every skater has a bad skate and they deserve to be marked down for it. No matter if you are Davis/White, Chan or Savchenko/Szolkowy
Speaking of Savchenko/Szolkowy, they received an 8.79 in SS even though she stumbled out of a SBS, yes they got no credit for it but she stood there for 15 seconds like a deer in headlights. Good skating skills? Also at the GPF they received 8.57 and they had no mistakes so evidently you can stand around for at least 15 seconds of a program and the judges consider that good skating skills, even though you are nor even skating
. I guess more skaters should do that 
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
A fall is a fall no matter on what element it happens, a spin, a man throwing his partner or a jump; as it should. I am not dwelling on ONE competition or ONE skater I said ANY SKATER, ANY COMPETITION. Skating skills is assessed on how well a skater skates, if they spend part of the time on their butt, knee, thigh, hands or any other part of their body expect their blade, no, they do not have good Skating Skills. I couldn't care less if their are considered the best skater to ever take the ice, every skater has a bad skate and they deserve to be marked down for it. No matter if you are Davis/White, Chan or Savchenko/Szolkowy
Speaking of Savchenko/Szolkowy, they received an 8.79 in SS even though she stumbled out of a SBS, yes they got no credit for it but she stood there for 15 seconds like a deer in headlights. Good skating skills? Also at the GPF they received 8.57 and they had no mistakes so evidently you can stand around for at least 15 seconds of a program and the judges consider that good skating skills, even though you are nor even skating
You insist on a different defination of Skating Skills from competition rules so I can't do a thing about that. I do think how much a fall interupts the flow of the program may affect the Performance/Execution and perhaps Transition/Linking Footwork scores. E.g. Chan always springs right back up with no effect on the flow whereas Oda tends to take time to get up and regain his composure such that he sometimes misses part of the following step sequence. In Oda's case or in the example you cited with S/S, the judges might have marked down certain PCS but not necessarily Skating Skills unless it too was affected, as reflected in the edges, balance, power, etc. of the skating because the skater gets rattled.
Not listed by IPogue, Chan's PCS, however, do seem to reflect his numbers of falls in his LP:
81.30 COR (3 falls)
84.14 SC (1 fall)
87.22 GPF (no fall)
In contrast to other skaters, Chan is the exception whose PCS suffer from his falls.
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- Nov 19, 2010
mousepotato, I'm sorrry that a point I was making in my previous post was rather easy to interpret differently from intended, which I have gone back to clarify before your response. My question about whether a spin should be penalized when a skater had fallen pertained to a fall from a jump, a seperate element, not a fall from the spin itself. The point is about seperate judging and assassment of each element or component of the program performed.
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- Jun 3, 2009
mousepotatot, where should they marked down? In which bullet? Because if it affects none of the bullets posted, then what you are suggesting is that judges make up new rules to follow while judging.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Super layout of judging Falls. There are many discrepancies occurring with a Fall, aside from the obvious Tech, the Program Components get hit hard, particularly Skating Skills and Performance.
I believe the CoP is there to protect skaters, and Falls are a wrist slap. They have bundled up all the discrepancies both Tech and PC into a minus one (-1) deduction, and ignored the affect Falls have on the Program. And for Tech, there is more credit if a skater Falls, than if he does not Fall on an underrotation. So much for a sloppy sport, imo.
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- Jun 21, 2003
If the ISU would rename the Skating Skills component to "stroking and edgework between elements." then there would be no need to argue about what the words "skating skills" ought to embrace.
Falls do, however, affect choreography, interpretation and performance/execution, IMO. As SkateFiguring mentions, some falls have a greater negative impact on performance than others.
Falls do, however, affect choreography, interpretation and performance/execution, IMO. As SkateFiguring mentions, some falls have a greater negative impact on performance than others.
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- Mar 24, 2010
When someone falls, they really have good precision in their foot placement? I don’t think so otherwise they would have landed the jump. Do they have flow and effortless glide across the ice, not on their skates they don’t, unless that bullet means any body part? Do they have cleanness and sureness of deep edges, power/energy and acceleration when they fall? Do they have mastery of one foot skating, or one foot falling? In pairs skating; did both show equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison? Especially if one fell; or maybe they fell in unison? Did the fall give them good ice coverage?
I’m not saying take a team that would have normally scored 8.50 and take them down to a 5.00 but the PCS scores need to reflect that the mistake was made in Skating Skills and/or Performance and Execution and it doesn’t look like that is being done.
A judge should also know the difference between a bad performance and bad luck. A broken blade should be deducted accordingly but it has nothing to do with bad skating skills.
As far as what happened to Aliona, she missed almost every bullet under skating skills and wasn’t penalized at all. I find it hard to believe it she had done the spin that they would have receive all 10s. I think that skaters are given too much of a benefit of the doubt.
Don't even get me started on UR jumps like D/R at 4CC.
I’m not saying take a team that would have normally scored 8.50 and take them down to a 5.00 but the PCS scores need to reflect that the mistake was made in Skating Skills and/or Performance and Execution and it doesn’t look like that is being done.
A judge should also know the difference between a bad performance and bad luck. A broken blade should be deducted accordingly but it has nothing to do with bad skating skills.
As far as what happened to Aliona, she missed almost every bullet under skating skills and wasn’t penalized at all. I find it hard to believe it she had done the spin that they would have receive all 10s. I think that skaters are given too much of a benefit of the doubt.
Don't even get me started on UR jumps like D/R at 4CC.
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- Jul 11, 2003
The throught of changing an official nomenclature puts fear into the conservative mind.
The whole of the Sport of figure skating is a skill. Was that taken into consideration?
I would think changing the name to Basic Skills, would be a better heading for those guidelines, so as not to confuse it with the skills of elements.
You at least acknowledge it finally, but the fear of changing a regulation still frightens you to think a minus one (-1) deduction does not cover all the discrepancies of what a Fall causes.
btw. What is the impact on scores, you mentioned. Examples, please. Imaginary Pogue listed and others added to it several top skaters where Falls had no affect on their PC scores.
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- Nov 19, 2010
Joesitz, you have commented on the Quad list with similar rant but you fail to see that the list illustrates how much the penalty can be for a fall and other faults on a jump. Some of the quads earn just 2.00 point before -1 deduction, ending up 1 point total on the element for the program, less then most double jump's BV. And such reults are from the higest scoring jump, namely the quads. The consequences can be even more severe for lesser jumps.
By mousepotato's reasoning, doing lesser jumps makes a better skater, and means s/he has better skating skills. Well, scoring Skating Skill is easy peacy then. Skating competitions would be so pretty.
By mousepotato's reasoning, doing lesser jumps makes a better skater, and means s/he has better skating skills. Well, scoring Skating Skill is easy peacy then. Skating competitions would be so pretty.
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- Jul 26, 2003
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I wouldn't like skating skills to be defined as just between elements, especially because the footwork and spiral sequences are where skating skills are best seen and easiest to evaluate. When Chan falls in the footwork (Skate Canada 2010), I would hope there is a small lowering of his skating skills. When he falls on a 3A or 4T and gets up quickly (which he always does), I wouldn't expect to see much effect.
So let's see what the judges did:
Chan SP Skate Canada 39.47 (fell on f/w, fell on 3A, fell on 4T)
Chan SP CoR 40.42 (fell on 3A)
Chan SP GPF 41.82 (UR on the 4T, no falls)
So yes, it appears the judges took some small notice of the fact that Patrick fell some 3 times in the SP at Skate Canada. However, his PCS was still higher than Oda, who won the SP and got PCS of 38.00 and Reynolds, who placed second and got 34.06, and Rippon, who placed third and got 36.43. I'm perfectly fine with him getting 41.82 at the GPF, and very little less with one fall at CoR on a 4T. It's the SC PCS that still gripes my guts, and it's mainly because he fell on the step sequence. Heck several of the judges gave him -1 on the step when he didn't complete the element
So let's see what the judges did:
Chan SP Skate Canada 39.47 (fell on f/w, fell on 3A, fell on 4T)
Chan SP CoR 40.42 (fell on 3A)
Chan SP GPF 41.82 (UR on the 4T, no falls)
So yes, it appears the judges took some small notice of the fact that Patrick fell some 3 times in the SP at Skate Canada. However, his PCS was still higher than Oda, who won the SP and got PCS of 38.00 and Reynolds, who placed second and got 34.06, and Rippon, who placed third and got 36.43. I'm perfectly fine with him getting 41.82 at the GPF, and very little less with one fall at CoR on a 4T. It's the SC PCS that still gripes my guts, and it's mainly because he fell on the step sequence. Heck several of the judges gave him -1 on the step when he didn't complete the element
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- Nov 19, 2010
Chan's SC SP Step Sequence was, firstly, downgraded from level 4 to level 2, reducing the element's BV. Then he received a bunch of -3 GOE, an automatic reaction of judges from jump evaluation. In fact, even for a fall in jump, -3 can be mitigated with positive aspects of the jump as long as the final is negative. For Chan's Step Sequence, he still had many strong features despite the fall so a few judges took that and the downgrade into consideration and gave him -1 GOE, all within the judging guidline. Chan ended up with 1.7 points, total 0.7 point after the -1 deduction for the fall, compared to his 5.9 on the same element at the GPF. No, he didn't get off easy.
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- Jun 21, 2003
I think the idea behind the CoP -- for good or ill -- was to compartmentalize the perforamce into as many little distinct scoring modules as possible. You get so many points for a good or a bad triple Lutz, but that does not carry over into your score in your camel spin , your footwork sequence, or your "Stroking Between Elements" score.
Obviously, some overlap can't be avoided, as for instance in transitions into a jump element.
The three "second mark" scores, P&E, Ch&C, and INT, are intended to take into account how it all fits together. A footwork sequence that is intended to support a whiz-bang musical frenzy, but is marred by a bad fall, can really take the wind out of the program's sails. (Or sometimes, not so much.) In my opinion this should be taken into account there, not necessarily in SS and TR.
Obviously, some overlap can't be avoided, as for instance in transitions into a jump element.
The three "second mark" scores, P&E, Ch&C, and INT, are intended to take into account how it all fits together. A footwork sequence that is intended to support a whiz-bang musical frenzy, but is marred by a bad fall, can really take the wind out of the program's sails. (Or sometimes, not so much.) In my opinion this should be taken into account there, not necessarily in SS and TR.
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- Mar 24, 2010
No, that isn't what I said. A fall on a double jump should carry the same penalty as a fall on a quad the only difference being the difference in the base value. I just think the judges are afraid to give skaters like Chan or Kim or D/W or S/S PSC scores under 7.50 even if they deserve it. Just like they won't give skaters like Evora and Ladwig or Shawn Sawyer 8.50 or higher even if they deserve it. Falls should be taken off of many areas of the score sheet where applicable.
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- Jul 26, 2003
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Well, actually D&W did have some penalties for their fall at SA. (Both of them fell at the same time doing a transitional move, rather than falling on an element, and they got up immediately.)
SA Total 93.06 PCS 50.90
NHK Total 98.24 PCS 52.02
GPF Total 102.94 PCS 52.79
4CC Total 103.02 PCS 53.01
SA Total 93.06 PCS 50.90
NHK Total 98.24 PCS 52.02
GPF Total 102.94 PCS 52.79
4CC Total 103.02 PCS 53.01
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- Jul 11, 2003
My rant on the CoP is piece meal. I'm totally and unequivocably against Partial Credit. That's how tough I am on the 'pretty' sport. Either a skater executes an element by definition, or he gets NO base value credit. Falls are not good Skating Skills. Tell me they are and prove it. I don't want to hear what the regulations say. I know what they say. A Fall with all its ensuing errors are bundled up into a -1 deduction to include the Tech as well as the PCs. Imaginary Pogue showed in her List that Falls do not affect the PCs. I presume you are ok with that.
Competitors, imo, should display perfect elements in competition or leave them out. That would make judging easier.
