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Thread: Whom Do You See on the Worlds Podium?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Chanadian.

  2. #77
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Chan may not be my favorite skater, but I really don't want any skaters to fall. I would be very surprised not to see Chan on the podium given the successful season he has had. He has set himself up very well as the favorite for Tokyo; it's up to him to deliver now.
    HEAR! HEAR! Falls in the 6.0 system cost many would be champions their gold medal. Talk to Cohen about this. Kwan never beat Cohen when there were no Falls by Cohen.

    If you judge in the CoP, a Fall shows bad skating skills, and it disrupts the program. The minus one penalty is not enough to cover sloppy skating. It's not that the skater Falls all the time, it's judging the skater on what he does in competition. (Not what he can do last week.)

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    HEAR! HEAR! Falls in the 6.0 system cost many would be champions their gold medal. Talk to Cohen about this. Kwan never beat Cohen when there were no Falls by Cohen.

    If you judge in the CoP, a Fall shows bad skating skills, and it disrupts the program. The minus one penalty is not enough to cover sloppy skating. It's not that the skater Falls all the time, it's judging the skater on what he does in competition. (Not what he can do last week.)
    When was there a competition when Cohen didn't fall or mess up? I also only remember her beating Kwan once at Worlds in 2004, and she nearly fell on two jumps and did like an overrotated double salchow near the end (as well as the flutzing as much as you hated). And I don't understand. How does a fall show bad skating skills? It definitely disrupts the program, I understand, but skating skills is more the in between of elements rather than the landing of a jump...here's the ISU's description of skating skills:
    • Balance and rhythmic knee
    action and precision of foot
    placement
    • Flow and effortless glide
    • Cleanness and sureness of deep
    edges, steps and turns
    • Power/energy and acceleration
    • Mastery of multi directional
    skating
    • Mastery of one foot skating
    • Pair Skating and Ice Dancing –
    equal mastery of technique by
    both partners shown in unison
    • Ice Dancing – compulsory dance
    – ice coverage

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by burntBREAD View Post
    When was there a competition when Cohen didn't fall or mess up? I also only remember her beating Kwan once at Worlds in 2004, and she nearly fell on two jumps and did like an overrotated double salchow near the end (as well as the flutzing as much as you hated). And I don't understand. How does a fall show bad skating skills? It definitely disrupts the program, I understand, but skating skills is more the in between of elements rather than the landing of a jump...here's the ISU's description of skating skills:
    • Balance and rhythmic knee
    action and precision of foot
    placement
    • Flow and effortless glide
    • Cleanness and sureness of deep
    edges, steps and turns
    • Power/energy and acceleration
    • Mastery of multi directional
    skating
    • Mastery of one foot skating
    • Pair Skating and Ice Dancing –
    equal mastery of technique by
    both partners shown in unison
    • Ice Dancing – compulsory dance
    – ice coverage
    But I think Michelle did beat Sasha in the FS at 2004 worlds. I just wasn't enough to beat her overall. BTW, Sasha did have a couple comps where she didn't mess up. There was a GP event way back in the day and one Marshall's Challenge. Minor competitions but every once in a while I do look it up just to see Sasha do a perfect LP.

  5. #80
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Kwan never beat Cohen when there were no Falls by Cohen.
    2002 Nationals says hello.

  6. #81
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    ^True! How could I forget. A couple of saved landings but no falls and overall one of Sasha's best performances. Wasn't her year internationally, though.

  7. #82
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    Men: Chan, Takahashi, Kozuka
    Ladies: Kim, Ando, Asada
    Pairs: Kavaguti/Smirnov, Savchenko/Szolkowy, Pang/Tong
    Dance: Davis/White, Virtue/Moir, Pechalat/Bourzat

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Skating Skills, not Skating Abilities, are concerned with blades moving on the ice, not jumping off it. Taking out the jumps, can anybody outside Dance outskate Chan? And, if Chan had the same jump content as the others, he wouldn't have any fall. Would you consider he had better Skating Skills then? Bottom line, Skating Skills are not measured by jumps or falls.
    I could not disagree more, skating skills is how skilled you are at skating. That includes the second the skater first moves until the skater ends. It includes everything you said as well as jumps. If if didn't there would only be ice dancing and a seperate jumping competition. If Patrick Chan fell 4 times in one competition he obviously didn't have fabulous skiting skills at that particular competition and it should have been reflected in the skating skills part of the PCS. Same for any skater at any competition.

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    PCS for Skating Skills

    Nobunari Oda
    Skate America LP (one fall): 8.29
    Skate Canada LP (one fall): 7.96
    Grand Prix Final LP (two falls): 8.14

    Daisuke Takahashi
    NHK LP (no falls): 8.39
    Skate America LP (one fall): 8.46
    Grand Prix Final LP (two falls): 8.32
    Four Continents LP (one fall): 8.29

    Jeremy Abbott
    NHK LP (no falls): 7.79
    CoR LP (two falls): 7.89

    Denis Ten
    NHK LP (three falls): 6.25
    Skate America LP (five falls): 6.43

    I could go look up more, but I think that the judges are clearly not incorporating falls on elements in PCS in Skating Skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mousepotato View Post
    I could not disagree more, skating skills is how skilled you are at skating. That includes the second the skater first moves until the skater ends. It includes everything you said as well as jumps. If if didn't there would only be ice dancing and a seperate jumping competition. If Patrick Chan fell 4 times in one competition he obviously didn't have fabulous skiting skills at that particular competition and it should have been reflected in the skating skills part of the PCS. Same for any skater at any competition.
    A few posts above, BurntBREAD has already brought over the defination of Skating Skills as spelled out by ISU and how SS are judged. Why argue with me?

    In COP system, each element and component is judged separately. A fall incurs its hefty penalties. Do you think a skater's marks for his spins should be deducted if he has a fall from a jump? Skating Skills is a separatly judged component, just as a spin is.

    SS is worth about 10% of the total score and on its own doesn't win a competition. Point differnces among top skaters are usually less than one, factored into less than 2 points in LP. In SC, Chan's SS was 0.18 point over Oda's in the SP and, in the LP where they each had a fall, Chan's SS is 0.58 X 2 = 1.16 over Oda's. The total diference is 1.34 for which Chan has been bashed over for months and likely forever.

    I think many people confuse the "Skating" part of Skating Skills as the performance of an entire skating program, as in how a pregram is "skated". Therefore, falls means bad skating, and bad Skating Skills. But it ain't so in scoring a competitive program, or else someone skating an easy program will easily win over a skater with difficult jump content.

    Any way, why are you dwelling on one competition from early in the season? Do you still consider Patrick Chan as having poor skating skills? Should PCS be increased proportionately with jump success?

    Eta. Good illustration, IPogue! Nothing like facts to spoil myths.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 02-28-2011 at 12:34 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    A few posts above, BurntBread has already brought over the defination of Skating Skills as spelled out by ISU and how SS are judged. Why argue with me?

    In COP system, each element and component is judged separately. A fall incurs its hefty penalties. Do you think a skater's marks for his spins should be deducted if he has a fall? Skating Skills is a separatly judged component, just as a spin is.

    SS is worth less than 10% of the total score and on its own doesn't win a competition. Point differnces among top skaters are usually less than one, factored into less than 2 points in LP. In SC, Chan's SS was 0.18 point over Oda's in the SP and, in the LP where they each had a fall, Chan's SS is 0.58 X 2 = 1.16 over Oda's. The total diference is 1.34 for which Chan has been bashed over for months and likely forever.

    I think many people confuse the "Skating" part of Skating Skills as the performance of an entire skating program, as in how a pregram is "skated". Therefore, falls means bad skating, and bad Skating Skills. But it ain't so in scoring a competitive program, or else someone skating an easy program will easily win over a skater with difficult jump content.

    Any way, why are you dwelling on one competition from early in the season? Do you still consider Patrick Chan as having poor skating skills? Should PCS be increased proportionately with jump success?

    Eta. Good illustration, IPogue! Nothing like facts to spoil myths.
    A fall is a fall no matter on what element it happens, a spin, a man throwing his partner or a jump; as it should. I am not dwelling on ONE competition or ONE skater I said ANY SKATER, ANY COMPETITION. Skating skills is assessed on how well a skater skates, if they spend part of the time on their butt, knee, thigh, hands or any other part of their body expect their blade, no, they do not have good Skating Skills. I couldn't care less if their are considered the best skater to ever take the ice, every skater has a bad skate and they deserve to be marked down for it. No matter if you are Davis/White, Chan or Savchenko/Szolkowy

    Speaking of Savchenko/Szolkowy, they received an 8.79 in SS even though she stumbled out of a SBS, yes they got no credit for it but she stood there for 15 seconds like a deer in headlights. Good skating skills? Also at the GPF they received 8.57 and they had no mistakes so evidently you can stand around for at least 15 seconds of a program and the judges consider that good skating skills, even though you are nor even skating . I guess more skaters should do that

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    Quote Originally Posted by mousepotato View Post
    A fall is a fall no matter on what element it happens, a spin, a man throwing his partner or a jump; as it should. I am not dwelling on ONE competition or ONE skater I said ANY SKATER, ANY COMPETITION. Skating skills is assessed on how well a skater skates, if they spend part of the time on their butt, knee, thigh, hands or any other part of their body expect their blade, no, they do not have good Skating Skills. I couldn't care less if their are considered the best skater to ever take the ice, every skater has a bad skate and they deserve to be marked down for it. No matter if you are Davis/White, Chan or Savchenko/Szolkowy

    Speaking of Savchenko/Szolkowy, they received an 8.79 in SS even though she stumbled out of a SBS, yes they got no credit for it but she stood there for 15 seconds like a deer in headlights. Good skating skills? Also at the GPF they received 8.57 and they had no mistakes so evidently you can stand around for at least 15 seconds of a program and the judges consider that good skating skills, even though you are nor even skating . I guess more skaters should do that
    You insist on a different defination of Skating Skills from competition rules so I can't do a thing about that. I do think how much a fall interupts the flow of the program may affect the Performance/Execution and perhaps Transition/Linking Footwork scores. E.g. Chan always springs right back up with no effect on the flow whereas Oda tends to take time to get up and regain his composure such that he sometimes misses part of the following step sequence. In Oda's case or in the example you cited with S/S, the judges might have marked down certain PCS but not necessarily Skating Skills unless it too was affected, as reflected in the edges, balance, power, etc. of the skating because the skater gets rattled.

    Not listed by IPogue, Chan's PCS, however, do seem to reflect his numbers of falls in his LP:

    81.30 COR (3 falls)
    84.14 SC (1 fall)
    87.22 GPF (no fall)

    In contrast to other skaters, Chan is the exception whose PCS suffer from his falls.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 02-28-2011 at 01:26 AM.

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    mousepotato, I'm sorrry that a point I was making in my previous post was rather easy to interpret differently from intended, which I have gone back to clarify before your response. My question about whether a spin should be penalized when a skater had fallen pertained to a fall from a jump, a seperate element, not a fall from the spin itself. The point is about seperate judging and assassment of each element or component of the program performed.

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    mousepotatot, where should they marked down? In which bullet? Because if it affects none of the bullets posted, then what you are suggesting is that judges make up new rules to follow while judging.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    PCS for Skating Skills

    Nobunari Oda
    Skate America LP (one fall): 8.29
    Skate Canada LP (one fall): 7.96
    Grand Prix Final LP (two falls): 8.14

    Daisuke Takahashi
    NHK LP (no falls): 8.39
    Skate America LP (one fall): 8.46
    Grand Prix Final LP (two falls): 8.32
    Four Continents LP (one fall): 8.29

    Jeremy Abbott
    NHK LP (no falls): 7.79
    CoR LP (two falls): 7.89

    Denis Ten
    NHK LP (three falls): 6.25
    Skate America LP (five falls): 6.43

    I could go look up more, but I think that the judges are clearly not incorporating falls on elements in PCS in Skating Skills.
    Super layout of judging Falls. There are many discrepancies occurring with a Fall, aside from the obvious Tech, the Program Components get hit hard, particularly Skating Skills and Performance.

    I believe the CoP is there to protect skaters, and Falls are a wrist slap. They have bundled up all the discrepancies both Tech and PC into a minus one (-1) deduction, and ignored the affect Falls have on the Program. And for Tech, there is more credit if a skater Falls, than if he does not Fall on an underrotation. So much for a sloppy sport, imo.

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