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Thread: Are GOEs the same for all skill levels?

  1. #1
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Are GOEs the same for all skill levels?

    Let’s say a world champion skater does an average triple flip in her performance. Average, that is, in comparison with the top skaters in the world who are going for the world championship. It is still a lot better than an “average” triple flip by a skater who is hoping to get fourth at regionals and make it into the bottom half at Nationals.

    By the same token an intermediate presenting a double flip would not have the same speed going in, the same sureness of technique, the same height and distance, the same flowing landing edge, as you would routinely expect of an elite senior. So they could earn those GOE bullets only relatively.

    Would an “average for Miki Ando” flip deserve an automatic positive GOE, reserving the 0 GOE for “average for Average Annie?” Are judges generally expected to give objective marks that mean the same thing all up and down the skill scale?

    It seems like this could happen even within a competition. If the first ten skaters all fall on their triple flips, and then someone – finally! – does an average one, the judges might give an extra little bonus just out of sheer relief.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    good question. I think the GOE's really do change by the field in which the skater is skating at the present moment. At the Olympics and a +3 might be harder to achieve than at a national championships in a country with a weak field. Comparison must factor in. Still, scores at big events like olympics/worlds do tend to be higher than at other events....

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    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    I suspect it is relative to the expectation of the level of the skater. My suspicion is such because I would think that Juvenile/Intermediate level skaters would not receive + GOEs otherwise on jumps and spins because while the elements may be very good for their level, they are not good relative to a World medalist or else they would be skating Junior or Senior.

    I do see corridors of PCS marks by level, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    I suspect it is relative to the expectation of the level of the skater. My suspicion is such because I would think that Juvenile/Intermediate level skaters would not receive + GOEs otherwise on jumps and spins because while the elements may be very good for their level, they are not good relative to a World medalist or else they would be skating Junior or Senior.
    On average that is true.

    But the two places I see a lot of positive GOE at the intermediate, and occasionally juvenile, level are single axels and spins.

    Most of these kids have been doing single axels for years and are working on double axels at home, but most of them don't have double axels that are competition ready. So the above-average jumpers in that situation will have big, strong single axels that they go into with good speed and get good height and good distance, and sometimes they will use difficult entries (spread eagle, back inside three turn, back outside counter), variations of air position, and/or variation of landing position to earn positive GOEs.

    All to keep them competitive with their peers who do attempt double axels.

    The very strongest jumpers at juvenile and intermediate levels are attempting double axels, and no they don't earn or deserve the same kinds of GOEs as the average senior skaters can get for that jump.

    Senior skaters who compete internationally don't usually plan single axels, so when they do execute singles it's usually either as a mistake (pop) or a choice due to fatigue at the end of the program, so they're not likely to earn positive GOE.

    As for spins, as long as the skater has good technique and good extension, it's usually easier for a smaller body to spin faster and thus achieve more revolutions more total revolutions in the same amount of time, and for a younger body to achieve greater flexibility. So the good spinners at intermediate level can often hold their own with the good senior spinners. And since the minimum revolutions required at intermediate level are slightly lower than the senior requirements, it's that much easier for the good intermediate spinner to achieve double or triple the required minimum.

    Also, level 4 spins are worth more than most double jumps. At a level where most of the jumps are double, there's more incentive for the talented spinners to develop their talent to set themselves apart from the rest of the crowd who are all doing the same double jumps.


    On the other hand, from the below-average jumpers or spinners at those levels, you'll see a lot more negative GOE for elements that would be easy for most senior skaters to get +1s and +2s on without trying. The senior skaters often don't include those simpler elements because they need the slots for elements with higher base marks.
    Last edited by gkelly; 03-07-2011 at 10:15 AM.

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