Who is the greatest ladies figure skater of all time?

**FlattFan** · 05-24-2011, 08:45 PM

Even Midori's triple lutz is more impressive than the collective accomplishments of Tara Lipinski and Oskana Baiul. Both of these hags maybe need to cure cancer, save Africa, AND resolve the Middle East conflict to come close to Midori's triple axel.

lowtherlore · 05-27-2011, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by FlattFan

Even Midori's triple lutz is more impressive than the collective accomplishments of Tara Lipinski and Oskana Baiul. Both of these hags maybe need to cure cancer, save Africa, AND resolve the Middle East conflict to come close to Midori's triple axel.

Midori Ito didn't have a true lutz. She was a flutzer. She had a big triple axel, but it was not particularly beautiful or perfect in form. And one big jump cannot warrant a definitive judgment like the one you made. We all know a figure skating performance can be (and should be) much more than a simple sum of its elements.

**dorispulaski** · 05-27-2011, 10:01 AM

Here's Midori in her 1988 Olympic SP-one of the best ones every skated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl3Pe...eature=related
Check out the amazing lutz entrance to a double axel.
Check out the height of the triple loop, when done AFTER a double loop!!
Check out the interesting and surprising positions in her spins and the changes of positions!!!

Midori had a really nice lutz, seen here at the beginning of her 1988 Olympic LP. In fact, her technique on all her jumps, other than the wrap on some of them, was lovely . This music does not suit her as well as her SP music, but it's a great performance, ending in a complete standing ovation, remarkable for the 8th place skater (due to figures) to be getting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyu8GYBRIjE

And she had had a nice lutz for quite a while.
1981 Triple Lutzes and interview with a 12 year old Midori
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtmzXZ_p0fk

Here's what a flutz looks like (Tara 1998)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBt7TGh3HWM#t=1m0s
Yes she did it that way all the time. Here's another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUpZBt_x5cQ

Midori also had a better position in the layback than Tara. And she didn't have a small skiddy axel.

And here's what a two footed lutz looks like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6zKfZVurJY
And no, it's not a fluke. That is how Oksana always did the triple lutz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uZycSYnufI

Midori did indeed have a wrap, but other than that, she was amazing.

I wouldn't call Tara or Oksana hags, and both had an amazing enthusiasm on the ice, but they had systemic technical issues with their jumps.

BTW, Oksana's posture wasn't what it could have been (something that I didn't remember), and I can't stand the way she sticks her butt up getting into her signature donut spin, however, wow did she have personality on the ice in spades.

lowtherlore · 05-27-2011, 10:46 AM

No matter what you want to make it to be, Ito never had a true lutz. If you are to say she had a beautiful lutz, it’s equivalent of saying Asada had a true lutz, at any single point of her career.

Anyway, I was responding to the specific post made by Flattfan (I’m not even sure whether she/he is actually a fan of the Flatt I know, considering her/his uber-fondness for a big jump). For me, Lipinski’s or Baiul’s performance at the Olympics was more memorable and enjoyable than any of Ito’s even with her big but not visually pleasing jumps and all. Please don’t get me wrong, as I do consider Ito one of the greats though.

**FlattFan** · 05-27-2011, 01:05 PM

Unless you can find a clip that clearly shows Midori flutzes, go back under the bridge.
Asada is a known flutzer, no on is disputing that. It's like saying Yuna flutzes because Asada flutzes. It's like saying, "go back under the bridge, troll" is equivalent to "go back under the bridge, lowtherlore" What kind of logic is that?

**dorispulaski** · 05-27-2011, 05:33 PM

lowtherlore, I have no problem with you preferring Oksana or Tara, you are entitled to your own tastes, for sure, but to state Midori had a flutz, I want to see video proof.

Flattfan, Have you ever seen Midori's Rose of Pain 1993 World Pro technical program?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dg3j...14D91993AE220C

**pangtongfan** · 05-27-2011, 05:58 PM

Show us a video where Ito flutzes otherwise you have no ground to stand on.

As for Baiul and Lipinski to each their own. Taras Olympic winning performance did trump any performance Midori ever had at the Olympics but I would still never take it over Itos LP at the 89 or 1990 Worlds. As for Baiul IMO her Olympic winning performance was a joke and deserved no more than the bronze, and irregardless of my or your opinion it is still one of the most controversial and debated 17 years later. What does it say about your Olympic winning performance when most people think Nancy freaking Kerrigan was so robbed of the being Olympic Champion that year.

lowtherlore · 05-28-2011, 04:25 AM

Whether Ito flutzed or not belongs to the domain of public information, as you can find as many video clips as you want.

Check her lutz at 1989 Worlds (at 0:35).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUZ0iJIqzs

And check this slow motion capture from the 1981 practice clip doris mentioned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuhP9Z1QqYg

Be your own judge on whether the last-second change of edges was made or not. To my eyes it’s pretty obvious, even without a help of slow motion. As I said, she never had proper edges on her lutz. Interestingly, all of the prominent ladies under Yamada, including Asada and Murakami, have had similar techniques on lutz.

I have no intention to bash Ito. Frankly, I don’t think her flutzing significantly undermines her achievements to begin with, as the proper edges didn’t matter much at her times. But somebody saying Ito had beautiful lutz that would trounce the accomplishments of two Olympic champions is just laughable. Repeating ill-informed or deliberately misleading statements doesn’t change the facts, especially in this day and age. Why not call it for what it is?

Flattfan, of all people, you are calling me a troll?

The totally irrelevant and nonsensical analogy you made is a product of your own poor reasoning/logic, not mine.

**dorispulaski** · 05-28-2011, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by pangtongfan

Show us a video where Ito flutzes otherwise you have no ground to stand on.

As for Baiul and Lipinski to each their own. Taras Olympic winning performance did trump any performance Midori ever had at the Olympics but I would still never take it over Itos LP at the 89 or 1990 Worlds. As for Baiul IMO her Olympic winning performance was a joke and deserved no more than the bronze, and irregardless of my or your opinion it is still one of the most controversial and debated 17 years later. What does it say about your Olympic winning performance when most people think Nancy freaking Kerrigan was so robbed of the being Olympic Champion that year.

PTF, I think Ito's 1988 Olympics showed more impressive free skating skills in an Olympics than Tara's 1998 Olympic win. That's why I linked them above. Ito didn't go to just one Olympics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUZ0iJIqzs#t=0m35s

LTL,
The combination jump at 35 seconds in the 1989 short program by Ito was a double toetriple toe. The British commentators indeed say so. In fact, if her first jump had been a double lutz, Ito would have failed on an element, because in the 1988/1989 season, the required combination was one that contained a double toe in it as either the first or second jump. A triple toe as a second jump would not have filled the requirement, in which case no judge would have given her a 6.0 on the technical mark.

So I am still looking for a flutz somewhere in the 1989 OP.

Now that was not a particularly great Ito Original Program. I'm with the commentators on the subject of the specially written Japanese tango as not suiting her particularly.

And if you wanted to fault the weakness of her spiral sequence in that program, I'm right there with you

OTOH, 1988/1989 was the first season that a spiral sequence was required in the SP (OP) and it wasn't yet clear exactly what one should look like. Before that, the spiral had been a throwaway transitional move. Ito's coach appears not to have figured it out as early as Trenary's coach Fassi or Yamaguchi's coach Ness. I wonder whether the odd music choice was to accomodate the spiral? If so, it wasn't a great idea.

In case you doubt, here's Debi Thomas's 1988 OP-as you will note, no spiral sequence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChmdE...FC215026285BB7

**miki88** · 05-28-2011, 12:05 PM

I really doubt lowerthelore watched Ito's programs other than to scrutinize a few clips for a wrong edge or not.

**pangtongfan** · 05-28-2011, 10:51 PM

I do wonder how the judges would score Ito's 88 Olympic free skate vs Kwan and Lipinski's 98 Olympic free skates (forget that she was 3rd in the free in Calgary, everyone knows that is only because she was way down after figures, not in contention, and not even in the final flight). If there was an all time battle for Olympic medals in ladies skating Kim from Vancouver would trounce all for gold, but there would be alot of possabilities for silver and bronze. And Baiul from 94 wouldnt even be in the top 10 in all time Olympic ladies competition.

**dorispulaski** · 05-29-2011, 02:43 AM

Are we using COP or 6.0 for this contest? And we have to construct a fictitious program since in 1988, there were no spiral sequences, and that would be the one element that Ito was significantly worse than Lipinski or Baiul in either case.

In COP PCS, speed is the key to COP success, and Ito skated as fast as the men of her era (and that would be Boitano and Orser, no slouches), which was one of the secrets to the height of her jumps. So in skating skills she definitely beats both of them. Dick says her lutz was bigger than Boitano's

Here's what she did:

layback good position
3lz good edge super height Dick goes crazy +3
3f not as textbook, but fully rotated, and certainly as good as Tara's.
really good combo spin
2A half loop 3s into a lunge. The salchow is a bit sloppy on the landing.
footwork ending in a double jump
===========================jump bonus after this point
spread eagle 3Lp (really good, definitely +2)
immediately into a camel spin
Ina bauer into 3t3t really nice
lousy spiral
forward flying sitspin
tano double of some kind
split 3s
split split 2a
fast spin to end

We don't give her penalties for the throwaway doubles (which we would in COP)

Considering the transitions into her jumps, and considering she did all 5 triples (total 6), and two combinations, one a 2A 3S sequence and a 3t3t, and that she has a forward flying sit, which always scores well, and there is a variation in her camel spin, clearly Baiul is not on the same page with no reasonable combination and double footedness, which COP does not like (which is why people think Kerrigan beat her)

Lets look at Lipinski, who did a lot of stuff. I don't know what we do with the 3 combinations not allowed in COP, but we should give her credit for them, I think.

pivots into layback not great position
2A a little skiddy
3F nice
3flutz2t second jump really small
good combo spin
footwork
resting section
====================Bonus for jumps here===============
3lp3lp both jumps small but really nice and look rotated to me
camel with variations
3flutz
spiral into a pose to rest
3T half loop 3S (3S is a UR call)

So COP, Tara gets 2 edge calls and a UR, so that her third combo does not get the credit she might (credit for 6 full triples and one UR'd one extra) She also does all 5 triples, and scores really well on the 3Lp3Lp. However, she only has 6 jumping passes (which is why I would give her credit for all 3 combinations. Call the second jump of her last combination a 7th pass. Like Ito, her presentation is mostly about enthusiasm and happiness.

So yes, I'd give it to Ito in COP, and as Dick says, speed and power rule in the technical mark in 6.0, Ito gets the technical in 6.0 too. The presentation score in 6.0 is more problematic, but Ito at least gets a tie on it to Lipinski. Given that Ito had a significantly better tech, she wins on my card, but YMMV.

It's really impressive that both ladies had their triple triples in the second half of the program! May I say that the performances of either of these two ladies would have won Worlds this year?

**pangtongfan** · 05-29-2011, 04:05 PM

Who knows what the judges would think though. They placed Ito's LP behind Witt's LP of only triple toes and triples salchows, and gave her 5.6s for artistry. Of course I guess that just goes to show it often is best to sidestep judges decisions altogether, as often they are clueless.