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Thread: Ladies - A Look Back (Video List)

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Thanks She did indeed have a great pro career. The pro videos were how I was introduced to her skating and then I went back and watched some of her competitions, although rarely. Fantastic the way she stayed in such great shape for so long. She definitely could have kept competiting had things been different.
    As a pro, Denise was famous for training harder than anyone else. I think it was Hamilton who was up late one night in the hotel during a competition, and there was Denise, working out in the hotel's gym. She kept her triples until forever. I think she probably felt that the one Worlds was the best she could ever do in the system as it was then. That as well as the financial demands of amateur skating probably gave her the motivation to turn pro.

    I was also pleased about how Kristi maintained her skills. She was a wonderful pro, actually increasing her skating quality as time went on. She really had the ideal career arc, both as an amateur and as a pro.

    As for Michelle and Irina, they both spoiled us, didn't they? We were able to watch two superb skaters grow and mature artistically instead of just getting a glimpse of talent that never developed, as was the case with Oksana, Tara, and Sarah. The latter three showed up, won the Olympics, and then never advanced or smoothed out their skills. This was especially a loss in the case of Oksana, who seems to be generally thought of as the most talented of the three. She did continue in pro skating but was not disciplined about her training (and had other problems besides). So her early appearance turned out to be her peak. Thank goodness for Michelle and Irina!

    By the way, thanks so much, renycpr, for providing this wonderful video list! What a great resource, and I know it took a lot of work and time.

  2. #17
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jatale View Post
    The random selection of 9 of 12 judges and the discarding of the high and low scores leaving only 7 judges seems like a pretty effective method to minimize the possibility of politically aligned voting.
    That scheme has been abandoned. Now there is no random draw, only nine judges are seated and the mean is trimmed by discarding the high and low score.

    The ISU's rationale for the random draw, along with anonymous judging, was that it would allow judges to doublecross their federation presidents. That is, if two or more federation heads got together to fix the results and directed their judges as to how to vote, the judges could always vote differently, then lie about it and the federations would be none the wiser.

    IMHO this explanation never held water, because the federation chiefs and ISU insiders knew how each judge voted. It was just the public that was kept in the dark. All of this was in response to the Salt Lake City controversy. The ISU's response to IOC displeasure and public embarrassment was, it's OK to cheat, what's scandalous is to get caught.

    You would have to have a clique of block voting that comprised probably at least 5 out of the 12 judges to have much of a chance of having a determinative effect on the results. Not very likely it seems to me.
    One thing that may help is the replacement of four of the judges between the short and long programs. But even one judge scoring with deliberate malice or unconscious bias could make a difference in a close contest.

    As for conspiracies among several judges, in the days of the random draw the result of the draw might weaken a conspiracy, but by the same token might strengthen it, depending on which judges' scores were thrown out.

    I do not see that it is either easier or harder for judges to cheat in giving out GOEs and PCSs than was the case in 6.0. For technical elements, the fixed base value adds some objectivity, but the tech panel still has the power to save or slay in terms of under-rotation and wrong edge calls. Anyway you slice it, we depend on the integrity and competence of the officials.

  3. #18
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    That's the way it was. I remember donating money to a campaign for Stephane Lambiel when he first began to show his talent. The Swiss Fed never gave him a sou.
    A most worthy cause.

  4. #19
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    Here are some videos of world championship winners from pre-1981

    1980 Anett Potzsch - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDBjnVC8gWE

    1979 Linda Fratianne - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u8s-a1KSLo

    1978 Anett Potzsch - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMX3V0x8v8k

    1977 Linda Fratianne - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfXwK-5erYE

    1976 Dorothy Hamill - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r42MTdTTCc - SP (apologies - could not find LP)

    1975 Dianne de Leeuw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax4J89ddFt8

    1974 Christine Errath - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojkrwkXKzTk - Could only find this montage

    1973 Karen Magnussen - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIH9SUftXSg

    1971-72 Beatrix Schuba - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzvtjbcv-Cs - little footage available. Hence, have selected this documentary re the Trixie Schuba/Janet Lynn controversy. As many of you may know, Schuba won the 1971 and 1972 Worlds, plus the 1972 Olympic title simply by virtue of the fact that she was so much better than anybody else at that time at the School Figures. Her free skating was not that great. Janet Lynn however was a superb free skater and usually won that section, but because most of the marks were allocated to the School Figures, Schuba would always win the major championships. Consequently, there was a huge outcry after the 1972 Olympics (most people viewing the situation as unfair), and the short program was introduced in 1973 to help alleviate the problem. The school figures section was finally axed (to most peoples relief) in 1990 (something Midori Ito was delighted about, Jill Trenary less so)

    1969/70 Gabby Seyfert - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw1kuqBDuwk - this is from the 1969 Gala (no other footage available)

    1967/68 Peggy Fleming - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv5gR4SKk_M - 1967 Worlds. This was last world championships to be held outdoors! Can you imagine skating in the wind, rain, snow, etc!

    1966 Peggy Fleming - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT6PNFAJVoE

    1965 Petra Burka - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StzDI2InudI - No footage. This is from a Holiday on Ice performance from 1967

    1962-64 Sjoukje Dijkstra - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkIM4rCHxC4 - No footage. This is her winning 1964 Olympic performance

    No World Champs took place in 1961 due to the air crash involving the US Team

    1956-60 Carol Heiss - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBmkAh2nxkA - 1956 Worlds (beating Tenley Albright for the first time in Worlds)

    1953 and 1955 Tenley Albright - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMOrI2M1cp0 - No footage. This is from the 1956 Worlds where she was defeated by Carol Heiss

    1954 Gundi Busch - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwqubGMkSno - No footage - Archive Film

    1952 - Jaqueline du Bief - no footage

    1951 - Jeannette Altwegg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78UxpDdyc78 - No footage - Montage

    1949/50 Alena Vrzanova - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C50iu2k6lqk - No footage - Archive film which also features other skaters from the period

    1947/48 Barbara-Ann Scott - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUTTkM_pj0I - No footage. This is from her winning 1948 Olympic performance

    1938/39 Megan Taylor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9t1Vul2T4Y - No footage. Just this tribute

    1927-36 Sonja Henie and 1937 Cecilia Colledge - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k1er6NRYdY - No footage. This is from the 1936 Olympics won by Sonja Henie, with Colledge finishing second. A titanic competition between the two of them for Gold, with a very controversial outcome. The two of them were neck and neck after the School figures section. In her 2008 obituary to Colledge, Sandra Stevenson of The Independent described what happened next: "The closeness [of the competition] infuriated Henie, who, when the result for that section was posted on the wall in the competitors lounge, swiped the piece of paper and tore it into little pieces. The draw for the free skating [then] came under suspicion after Henie landed the plum position of skating last, while Colledge had to perform second of the 26 competitors. The early start was seen as a disadvantage, with the audience not yet whipped into a clapping frenzy and the judges known to be freer with their higher marks as the event proceeded. Years later, a fairer, staggered draw was adopted to counteract the situation."

    1922-26 Herma Szabo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HByUOyu0u0 - No Footage. This is footage from the 1924 Olympics where she won gold

    Hope you enjoy
    Last edited by oksanafan; 03-12-2011 at 09:30 PM.

  5. #20
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    ^^^
    Fabulous collection! and your comments too, are worth saving all this for posterity.

  6. #21
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Thanks for the new list and the background. Of course, I knew about the Janet Lynn controversy but I had never seen a a documentary about it. So interesting. I've always been a bit confused about how someone can be a brilliant skater but not a good "figure skater" like Janet Lynn and Midori Ito. I've always wondered why some people were and some people weren't good and school figures and how that translates into their free skating.

    Also, thanks for the detail about Sonia ripping up the paper. Heh.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Thanks for the new list and the background. Of course, I knew about the Janet Lynn controversy but I had never seen a a documentary about it. So interesting. I've always been a bit confused about how someone can be a brilliant skater but not a good "figure skater" like Janet Lynn and Midori Ito. I've always wondered why some people were and some people weren't good and school figures and how that translates into their free skating.

    Also, thanks for the detail about Sonia ripping up the paper. Heh.
    I can compare it to the lacksadazical work on a text book Lutz. School Figures were difficult, and still are. There's a rush to be the great free skater and something has to suffer. With Lynne, it was school figures; with many of the present day ladies, it's the time spent on conquering that elusive counter rotation required in the Lutz.

    To get to Carnegie Hall, one must not rush, but must practice, practice, practice.

  8. #23
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    Oksanafan, thanks for this hard work! I'll watch them as I'm able to. I've never seen Dijkstra skate and have no idea as to her pluses and minuses. Schuba I've heard a lot about, what with her overwhelming advantage in school figures, but have never seen. I do remember Potsch very vaguely, and I kind of liked her style. As I recall, I preferred her to her East German successor, Witt.

    As far as skaters who were good free skaters and not great at figures, I don't know enough about the technical aspects of skating to understand the reason behind it. I do remember hearing that the European skaters tended to excel in figures. Someone likened them to a toy being pulled along on a string because they were so precise. I don't know what Janet Lynn's problem was, but I doubt it was lack of application. Her coach was Slavka Kohout, who doesn't give the impression of someone who would put up with slipshod training. Were the other American skaters of the time better than Janet? (I know Peggy Fleming was superb at figures, but I mean from 1969 to 1973, Lynn's peak.) Maybe the Europeans just had special training techniques. I'd love to hear more about this from other posters.

    As for Ito, I suspect the Japanese coaches weren't especially good at training figures at that time, and besides, Ito was such a phenomenal jumper that they probably concentrated on that aspect of her skating. I can't blame them! I'm still getting over the video someone here linked to, where Kurt Browning and Midori Ito (in their eligible years) both practiced a triple axel at the same time, and hers was as high as his. And she's about four foot ten! Simply mind-boggling. Who cares if she could do a rocker or a bracket better than anyone else when she had that?
    Last edited by Olympia; 03-13-2011 at 11:04 PM.

  9. #24
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I can compare it to the lacksadazical work on a text book Lutz. School Figures were difficult, and still are. There's a rush to be the great free skater and something has to suffer. With Lynne, it was school figures; with many of the present day ladies, it's the time spent on conquering that elusive counter rotation required in the Lutz.

    To get to Carnegie Hall, one must not rush, but must practice, practice, practice.
    Yes, I agree with the Carnegie Hall analogy, which is why I'm so interested. I guess my question is more - how much can you tell from a skater's free skating whether or not they are good at whatever it is school figures teaches (control and edging, I'm guessing). I know the skaters today that have been criticized for their lack of good edges and deep knee bends and ice coverage and all that stuff that I take to mean good basic skating. (Ryan Bradley, etc) Does that mean they would not have been good a school figures? Patrick Chan is always praised for his great basics so does that mean he would have been good at school figures? I'm just not sure how it all translates.

    In Janet Lynn's case, it's hard for me to see any bad basic skating there. Maybe Olympia is right and she was an okay figures skater but just not as good as Schuba. From what the documentary says, Shuba was some kind of school figures phenom and nobody could touch her there.
    Last edited by Layfan; 03-14-2011 at 05:35 PM.

  10. #25
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    Lynn was a wonderful free skater, but a very mediocre skater of school figures. Trixi Schuba was an awe-inspiring skater of school figures, but a mediocre free skater, so there wasn't a one for one correspondence. Debi Thomas was good at school figures, for example

    If I were to guess which lady would be good at school figures, I'm guessing Rachael Flatt would be a great school figure skater-concentration, good head for competition, analytical mind...

  11. #26
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    I think Miki Ando might be good at figures if they were still in competition too.

  12. #27
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Here's a skater who talks about how her skating improved after she got a school figures coach. Very interesting (has some Janet/Beatrix clips. She talks about how her coach told her the loops were an important skill and would help her with the entry into her jumps. The comments on the video are interesting too.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnaV1qmJtOw

    But now, I'm still confused. If figures help with your jumps how come great jumpers like Ito were not good at figures?

    Also, just curious, but anybody know how many coaches these days teach figures? Barely any? Or are there quite a few that require their skaters to practice them?

  13. #28
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Part of doing figures was actually being able to retrace them accurately. Trixi Schuba actually used to offset her third iteration of the figure a very small distance from the other two, because she cut them so deeply that the rut was too deep to skate over a third time. Amazing.

    There was also the issue of nerves-mentally figures competition is a very different skill than free skating. You have to stay very calm.

  14. #29
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    Life magazine had a pictorial of Barbara Ann Scott's circle eights in photographs. She had just finished her third tracings and the circles looked as though they were made on the first tracing. It was uncanny, and she was indeed, a remarkable figure skater.

    It would be nice if we had those Life photos of Scott's figures.

    The demise of school figure competition is a lost Sport.

  15. #30
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Part of doing figures was actually being able to retrace them accurately. Trixi Schuba actually used to offset her third iteration of the figure a very small distance from the other two, because she cut them so deeply that the rut was too deep to skate over a third time. Amazing.

    There was also the issue of nerves-mentally figures competition is a very different skill than free skating. You have to stay very calm.
    That IS amazing.

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