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Thread: ISU Where Will Worlds BE (formerly) JAPAN QUAKE FOR WORLDS

  1. #751
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    ^^^^

    Don't forget Amodio the studsy-wudsy fledgling.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 03-27-2011 at 09:31 PM.

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    Math, I hope you were laughing as hard when you wrote this as I was when I read it. I immediately had a mental image of Philippe Candeloro in one of his more out-there pro skates.

    Seriously, though, I wonder if we could make the case for skating carrying an extra emotional power because of the way the skater interacts with the music. Of course all sport can be incredibly emotional! But musical interpretation (if it's done right; not all skaters hit this mark, of course) adds an emotional level to the skating program that goes beyond just the excitement of seeing a phenomenal jumping pass. I must confess that a gymnastics floor exercise rarely does that for me, largely because as Mathman says the gymnasts don't really make use of the music. (Face it: we think skating programs are restrictive because of their requirements, but gymnastics programs are ten times more demanding. There's no way a gymnast could use a piece such as Gershwin's Piano Concerto in F for a floor exercise.)

  3. #753
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    No more than Men's skating
    In fact many of the Ladies could take posing lessons from Joubert, Bradley and Plushenko.
    Ahh, but the Ladies would also need to learn the 'wink and point and nod' flirting that the guys do during their exhibition routines. I always got bored by Elvis, Candleloro and other because their exhibitions consisted of jump, air guitar, wink and point, jump, clap, pump your fist in the air.

  4. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyang View Post
    Ahh, but the Ladies would also need to learn the 'wink and point and nod' flirting that the guys do during their exhibition routines. I always got bored by Elvis, Candleloro and other because their exhibitions consisted of jump, air guitar, wink and point, jump, clap, pump your fist in the air.
    What? Really? I really loved his performance at the 98 Olympics ...

  5. #755
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    About music in floor exercises for ladies gymnastics, that is an interesting comparison.As far as I can tell female gymnasts do not make any use of their music at all. They do a couple of cutsy-wootsy poses (cutsy-wootsy is not to be confused with hoity-toity ), then they get down to business and do their tumbling passes.
    just cutsy wootsy poses? (what is that?) ?? Look this, all the program.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYhRIdBpwpg

    By the way, from wiki
    Boginskaya retired after the 1992 Olympics, but decided to make a comeback in 1995. She said that she was inspired by Katarina Witt who had made a memorable comeback of her own at the 1994 Winter Olympics.


    By the way, Bogi was a figure skater before taking up gymnastics. I think we would have seen great things from her if she stayed a skater.

    Happy Bday to you and Doris

  6. #756
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Thank you for the good wishes.

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    Surya Bonaly, on the other hand, was a gymnast before turning to skating.

  8. #758
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    Enough with the hoity toity established Art forms. What about those skaters who are unable to contort their bodies? Jackson Haines said get ya body into a pretzle shape to the music. You'll wow them in Detroit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    :Happy Bday to you and Doris
    Happy birthday to you two from me too! (You share birthday with Akiko Suzuki, BTW.)
    I would like to use this opportunity to express how much I enjoy reading your posts - they never fail to enlighten and / or entertain me. Many happy returns.

  10. #760
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Happy Birthday to you. too, Seniorita. (Seniorita, Doris and I -- and Akiko -- all have the same birthday.)

  11. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Happy Birthday to you. too, Seniorita. (Seniorita, Doris and I -- and Akiko -- all have the same birthday.)
    Happy birthday to all of you.

    I will miss Akiko at the WC.
    Isn't it strange that several of the best skaters in the world are not allowed to compete at what is called a WC?

    That feels more like a pageant type rule and does not seem very sporting.

    If the ISU wants skating to be more like a real sport they might follow the model of other sports like tennis and golf that don't deny top 10 competitors a shot at the biggest event of the season.

    What a shame skaters like Akiko and Mirai can't compete so much less talented skaters can.

    Again, is this sport or pageant?

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    I've got to say, both these posts make complete sense to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think we can all agree that figure skating is not as hoity-toity as opera and ballet. I think we can also agree that it is a little more hoity-toity than soccer and hockey. You pay your money and you take your choice.

    About music in floor exercises for ladies gymnastics, that is an interesting comparison. As far as I can tell female gymnasts do not make any use of their music at all. They do a couple of cutsy-wootsy poses (cutsy-wootsy is not to be confused with hoity-toity ), then they get down to business and do their tumbling passes.

    Is ladies figure skating in danger of becoming like that?
    Mathman, I believe that you were born out of your time. There are occasions when your writing is like a strain of Rochefoucauld (its epigrammatic cast, and in pith and point) that has been merrily crossbred with the fables of Fontaine (in its illustrative quality).

    My own attempt at a contribution to your ground-breaking concept of skating "hoity-toityness" (I'll call it "HT" for short): it seems to me that we often lose sight of the fact that the idea of figure skating as a deliberately aesthetic enterprise is actually still in its infancy, as artistic disciplines go, and perhaps a foundling at that. IMO, it wasn't until figures were eliminated that the notion of skating as an expressive vehicle was allowed true scope (and the reason that Janet Lynn is still worshipped today as one its martyrs, when many champions of and before her time are now little more than historical curiosities).

    Further, when we consider the evolution of art forms for which there is documentation, it is often the case that they came from humble beginnings. It is now a truism that Jazz is the only authentically American art (and in its finest exponents, is now considered by many to be "high art" and hence HT/cerebral/esoteric/etc., the incontrovertible proof of which is the reflexive dislike in which it is held by the average teen ).

    But this wasn't always the case. A music that started with the poor and the colored, to the use the term of the time, and probably with more rudimentary techniques, and enjoyed a phase in which it was the rock music for an earlier generation, has scaled to the higher rungs of the HT ladder. What's revealing, though, is that it took a century to achieve this, and will require yet more time to reach HT empyrean (although it will, I believe, eventually get there).

    There are, I suggest, some real parallels with skating. Like jazz (and the British Empire), skating's artistry was perhaps 'acquired in a fit of absent mindedness' (when people watched Janet Lynn and started to wonder: "hmmm, I actually quite enjoyed that... why didn't she win?" Vox populi vox dei.).

    IMHO, where skating sometimes goes wrong is in its nouveau insecurity. Like a Victorian lady's maid striving to acquire an instant patina of caste by aping the decolletage of her mistress, I often feel that skating is overly concerned with hewing to the conventions of older, more established artistic disciplines such as ballet. My gripe is not against borrowing as such (actually, the practice has always been rife in all the arts, including ballet), but rather against the conviction among some that wholesale adoption is de rigueur and does not admit of choice in the matter.

    As in the case of the aforementioned domestic (who, so I've been told, later got a job in a typing pool, demonstrated her intelligence and spunk, rose to CEO and started buying haute couture to her own taste), I predict that figure skating, having acquired a taste for artistry as an intentional project, will continue to evolve, gradually and organically developing its own set of conventions and, eventually, mature. In some ways, I think we are lucky to be able to watch skating in its period of change; artistic maturity has its own issues, including the real prospect of hieratic stagnation. So let's not be too hard on it for deficiencies in HT during its growing pains.

    The potential spanner in the works is always the fooling around with the rules. Whether or not the current rules regime represents the ideal balance of sport and art, I'm of the mind that it nevertheless maintains enough space for at least the possibility of meaningful artistic performance. If, however, skating begins to swing too far to the technical (eg the school figures era) or too often, the evolution of skating aesthetics will be stunted, and may even suffer an extinction event.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia
    Math, I hope you were laughing as hard when you wrote this as I was when I read it. I immediately had a mental image of Philippe Candeloro in one of his more out-there pro skates.

    Seriously, though, I wonder if we could make the case for skating carrying an extra emotional power because of the way the skater interacts with the music. Of course all sport can be incredibly emotional! But musical interpretation (if it's done right; not all skaters hit this mark, of course) adds an emotional level to the skating program that goes beyond just the excitement of seeing a phenomenal jumping pass. I must confess that a gymnastics floor exercise rarely does that for me, largely because as Mathman says the gymnasts don't really make use of the music. (Face it: we think skating programs are restrictive because of their requirements, but gymnastics programs are ten times more demanding. There's no way a gymnast could use a piece such as Gershwin's Piano Concerto in F for a floor exercise.)
    I think you are absolutely right in your comments, Olympia. The emotional experience stemming from good art is different from the sporting experience, both in terms of the available range, and in the sense that the artistic experience is communicative: at its best, we feel the thrill of understanding the emotional message sent by the artist, like receiving a gift from a lover.

    And I agree that gymnastics, rhythmic or otherwise, are in this sense what skating used to be like, and have only limited scope for, as you say, the artistic experience.

  13. #763
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    Mathman. It is difficult to understand a good presentation when the poor Ladies have to worry about points which they get from Big Tricks - not from ART.

    It's not a question of when Ladies Figure Skating will become like poses in a Ladies Gymnastics, it ALREADY HAS! Both Sports use background music and it seems to me to get those Ladies into a rhythm is extreemely difficult. The TRICKS are about Sport - not ART.

    Anyway fans of figure skating, although limited in number, compared to other musical events will prevail as will the fans of Diving interests.

    Bring back the FREE SKATE, and let's talk about superb presentations.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Happy Birthday to you. too, Seniorita. (Seniorita, Doris and I -- and Akiko -- all have the same birthday.)
    And I send my birthday greetings to all of you, too. How lovely to find so many sterling skating posters sharing a birthday! Must be something in the stars.

  15. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    Isn't it strange that several of the best skaters in the world are not allowed to compete at what is called a WC?

    That feels more like a pageant type rule and does not seem very sporting.

    If the ISU wants skating to be more like a real sport they might follow the model of other sports like tennis and golf that don't deny top 10 competitors a shot at the biggest event of the season.
    Instead, the ISU follows the model of the "real sport" of speedskating, which they also administer.


    At the World Short Track Championships earlier this month, there were a maximum of three competitors from each country:
    http://www.sportresult.com/federatio...11210300000009

    I don't follow the sport, but I would bet that the fourth-best short track skater from Korea, China, Canada, and some of the other top-placing countries is better than the best skater from the lower-placing countries.

    For regular speedskating, there doesn't seem to be a single championships event of the same sort, but a World Cup series similar to the figure skating Grand Prix. As far as I can tell, it appears that the maximum number of entries from each country is 5 per sex and distance. That maximum also applies to the World Cup Final, so theoretically if a country has six or more skaters who meet the qualifications to enter the WCF for that distance, they have to leave someone home (or enter them in another distance they also qualify for).

    http://www.isuresults.eu/

    Does that make speedskating pageantlike?

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