Skating as art | Page 10 | Golden Skate

Skating as art

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
The story of Figure Skating went from snippets on Wide World of Sports to the Olympics and then to World Championships for many years. It brought in sponsors for TV showings of these events. In my opinion, no casual fan is going to look into the rules and regulations of the CoP. After so many years of watching 6.0 when Falls cost skaters medals, they are not about to accept these errors with a wrist slap.

Most avid fans will check it out. Skaters and Coaches need to know it. Choreographers can do more without it.

What is needs is a new method of scoring somewhere between the good points of the 6.0 sstem and the CoP.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If you want to believe Americans loved Michelle because they thought she was a great athlete that is fine with me. I think it was alot more than that though and of course you know I am right.

And the same for Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill. But they couldn't have reached that point if they hadn't first become great athletes representing the US in international competition and carrying Americans' patriotic rooting for them to win world and Olympic medals on the basis of their athletic excellence. If it's just a matter of looks and personality with no athletic skill, why not watch beauty pageants instead?

But I see nothing wrong with questioning the state of skating at the moment.

I see nothing wrong with questioning the state of skating either. But my interest is to make the sport better for the athletes, not to make it better for the fans at the expense of the athletes.

Just about every sport under the sun is being shown on TV in USA these days. What is wrong with skating that we are seeing less andless of it?

Maybe because there are so many other options out there now that there's a smaller share (of audience interest) left for skating. More competition for viewers' interest, not necessarily anything wrong with skating.

The general public may well prefer to watch a show on the ice than to watch
pure skating.

At best, the two can be combined, within competition format or without.

But the skaters have to learn to skate first, and be rewarded for their skills, to get to the point where they entertain for entertainment's sake.
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
And the same for Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill. But they couldn't have reached that point if they hadn't first become great athletes representing the US in international competition and carrying Americans' patriotic rooting for them to win world and Olympic medals on the basis of their athletic excellence. If it's just a matter of looks and personality with no athletic skill, why not watch beauty pageants instead?



I see nothing wrong with questioning the state of skating either. But my interest is to make the sport better for the athletes, not to make it better for the fans at the expense of the athletes.



Maybe because there are so many other options out there now that there's a smaller share (of audience interest) left for skating. More competition for viewers' interest, not necessarily anything wrong with skating.

Good answers but the last one on TV feels a little unambitious. Excuses are easy and solutions much harder. I wish I had some :)

My views on skaters as athletes is far different than my views on how figure skating is run. No need to keep bringing up pageants vs athletes when it should be clear that I refer to skating feeling like it is run more like a pageant and less like a sport at times.

Just so we are clear I will repeat that.
Skaters are fine and well disciplined athletes.

The fact that so much fuss is made about the costumes, and theatrical abilty can't be denied. It is part of the sport just like it is part of pageants.

Joesitz has mentioned many times he would like more sport in the SP with a focus on the elements and athletic skill. His idea is typically rejected and even scorned by the artistry/pageant lovers.

No music, no sequins....gasp!!!!

The price a poster pays for original thoughts at times.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I would offer all of the "usual suspects."
Your point is well taken but hardly news.

But what are the usual suspects? Hernando, it's clear that you have a deeper grasp on the history of the ebb-and-flow of figure skating in media than I. So what do you identify as the shift that clearly took place.

I wonder what it would take to bring it back (not meaning another "whack" or to mid-90 levels) so we could see more or expanded coverage of skating events.

First, identify the goal. Back to what? In 1997, American television covered the EUROS!!!! That startled me to no end - I had no idea figure skating had hit such popularity that an event where Americans were excluded from could get coverage.

It seems we have more TV stations than at anytime in history and online coverage too. But I wasn't able to find any American coverage of 4CC on TV or online that was shown during the event. :disapp:

That is disappointing. No two ways around it.

I think the idea that skating is a sport like baseball or football, or heaven help us like speedskating is not only a false premise but a marketing disaster.

Now this interests me. Why do you believe this is so?

If I were to look at this with a bit of historic perspective I might think back to the days when John Curry was producing very artistic shows that took place at Madison Square Garden and had were broadcaston Natl TV.
Why were they as successful?

No idea. I find what I've seen trite and boring. There's an article I'm tempted to buy that analyses the very packaging of figure skating in the 1990's.

I think skating needs to embrace it's artistic heritage and figure out who it's audience is here. Then create something that is enjoyable to watch for more than just the very small percentage of skating fans like GS members.

Now here's my question. Popularity tends to come at the cost of integrity. Take a look at any box office chart, TV ratings, best seller list, biggest shows on Broadway, etc. You will find the most popular ones are the ones that appeal to the lowest common denominator. If you compare to what is considered truly great, you'll find that they don't make money, that they're too challenging to really take up a big audience.

Now, not talking about the integrity of COP or IJS or anything like that, how do you suggest they do that while still maintaining the sporting aspects.

I find Joesitz's idea intriguing but underthought.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
No idea. I find what I've seen trite and boring. There's an article I'm tempted to buy that analyses the very packaging of figure skating in the 1990's.
I think the CoP packaged figure skating to distance itself from Disson shows.

Now here's my question. Popularity tends to come at the cost of integrity. Take a look at any box office chart, TV ratings, best seller list, biggest shows on Broadway, etc. You will find the most popular ones are the ones that appeal to the lowest common denominator. If you compare to what is considered truly great, you'll find that they don't make money, that they're too challenging to really take up a big audience.

Now, not talking about the integrity of COP or IJS or anything like that, how do you suggest they do that while still maintaining the sporting aspects.

I find Joesitz's idea intriguing but underthought.
I would add on to your point about popularity tending to come at the cost of integrity, it also comes with different eras. What was once stylish and popular in the decades before the nineties, is not on the list of the younger generation. I believe the younger generation rules the waves! How that affects Figure Skating as a popular sport is moot.

I really don't have a plan of action for revising the CoP except to change the PC setup to the old fashioned FREE SKATE.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Just about every sport under the sun is being shown on TV in USA these days. What is wrong with skating that we are seeing less andless of it?

Governing bodies within the sport wanting more money than the sponsors/tv networks are willing to bank on. the ISU can get far more from the Asian countries and some European companies because it's a huge deal right now, so they see no reason to discount the US's broadcasts...

however network TV does not show all sports, I don't see Soccer featured on any of the national networks, yes it has its own station, but that a niche programming. with football, baseball, basketball and golf raking in the bigger $$ that's who will continue to get the prime spots on tv.

I don't think girls in pretty dresses or guys in sequins is what turns people off - scandal does. Joe's not far off in that people don't understand why someone who falls three times (be it a guy or a lady) ends up winning when someone who's clean ends up 5th. It has nothing to do with 6.0 vs CoP, but all about perception. The complaints of poor judging and the wrong guy winning came well before the scoring change.

A lot of people I don't think would ever watch skating have mentioned recently (I'm talking in my real life) that they love watching it, even if they don't understand it. This are "macho men" who subscribe to the outdoor network (and two were even featured on a program on there for a moose hunt) they love the more "violent" sports of football and boxing... and yet they like figure skating too, and consider it a sport... but they hate that they don't understand how the judging system doesn't work like it's supposed to.
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
no sequins....gasp!!!!

The price a poster pays for original thoughts at times.

Some of the most artistic/moving programs did not have sequins. The skater skated in plain outfits, but moved the audience to such great heights with both technical mastery and artistry.

Then, you have some programs that "attempt" artistry through gimmicks (Urmanov's "Phantom" seemed garish to me...but then again, that was a cultural difference; his Phantom was modeled on the Russian version).
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Governing bodies within the sport wanting more money than the sponsors/tv networks are willing to bank on. the ISU can get far more from the Asian countries and some European companies because it's a huge deal right now, so they see no reason to discount the US's broadcasts...

however network TV does not show all sports, I don't see Soccer featured on any of the national networks, yes it has its own station, but that a niche programming. with football, baseball, basketball and golf raking in the bigger $$ that's who will continue to get the prime spots on tv.

I don't think girls in pretty dresses or guys in sequins is what turns people off - scandal does. Joe's not far off in that people don't understand why someone who falls three times (be it a guy or a lady) ends up winning when someone who's clean ends up 5th. It has nothing to do with 6.0 vs CoP, but all about perception. The complaints of poor judging and the wrong guy winning came well before the scoring change.

A lot of people I don't think would ever watch skating have mentioned recently (I'm talking in my real life) that they love watching it, even if they don't understand it. This are "macho men" who subscribe to the outdoor network (and two were even featured on a program on there for a moose hunt) they love the more "violent" sports of football and boxing... and yet they like figure skating too, and consider it a sport... but they hate that they don't understand how the judging system doesn't work like it's supposed to.

Many good points here Toni. I agree that perception is important because it is so different for many of us.

As to soccer/football I don't know what it's like in Alaska but ESPN shows a MLS game of the week here (actually sometimes several of them) and we get all of our home teams games broadcast.

There are also stations devoted to soccer including "Gol TV" and the "Fox Soccer channel. I also get Spanish language broadcasts of soccer , atleast 3-4 gamse a week.

Gol and Fox are pay stations and how I wish there was a skating channel that I could subscribe to.

I really have second thoughts about renewing my pay subscription with the outfit we are not supposed to mention here. They did not cover 4CC and are not covering Worlds. :scowl:

Next season I might give Universal a chance, and am considering switching from "Direct TV" to "Comcast" just to be able to see their coverage of skating.

We have a golf channel, a tennis channel and lots more. I can watch soccer and /or soccer news 24 hours a day with my current setup.

Will figure skating ever warrant it's own channel?
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Will figure skating ever warrant it's own channel?

Maybe a teddy bear company would sponsor it? :) Why hasn't any of them advertized on skating show?

There was a Canadian mutual fund company that used rowing in their advertizing and branding without ever sponsoring the sport until they were shamed into it.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Some of the most artistic/moving programs did not have sequins. The skater skated in plain outfits, but moved the audience to such great heights with both technical mastery and artistry.

Then, you have some programs that "attempt" artistry through gimmicks (Urmanov's "Phantom" seemed garish to me...but then again, that was a cultural difference; his Phantom was modeled on the Russian version).

Two programs come to mind:

"Missing" by the Duchesnays
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnUMc0VnB-c


"Love Story" by Sale/Pelletier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRWHwt91oj0&feature=related

Both in street clothes. I think one common link is that both programs are skated by older skaters, who are more able to express a mood and present a narrative. But maybe someone else will have a different rationale. In any case, these two couples certainly make a case that sequins are not required in order to move an audience.

As for Urmanov, who was known for his elaborate costumes, is that more a Russian approach? I know Yagudin seemed to favor less decorative clothing, even during his eligible career, and that look worked very well for him. Maybe he's in the minority among Russian skaters, though? (He just doesn't strike me as a fuss and feathers kind of guy!) When I think of the costumes worn by some of the Russian ice dancers...and even the German pair of Savchenko/Szolkowy can get a bit theatrical. Is it an Eastern European thing? Hmmm. Interesting issue.
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Oh yeah ;)

This more than cancels out the two programs cited that did not use sequins. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eulleg0hpQE

And more fun than a barrel of monkeys :biggrin:

I posted the Duchesnays "Missing" last night on Shibs/Dance topic. Hadn't seen it for years and now twice in two days. :)

Maybe I should watch more Ice Dancing because at times I enjoy it so much. V/M rarely fail to impress me and after all these years I am still amazed by what the Duchesnays and Chris Dean were doing back in the late 80's and early 90's.

Here is an early clip of them from '82 Canadian Jr Natls and I don't know if it is me (fanboy) but even here I see something so distinctive in their skating, particularly Isabelle. :love:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9B0tmaPaGo&playnext=1&list=PL998186D52E1897CF
 
Last edited:

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
As to soccer/football I don't know what it's like in Alaska but ESPN shows a MLS game of the week here (actually sometimes several of them) and we get all of our home teams games broadcast.

ESPN is not one of the main networks, it's a cable/sattellite channel. I was focussing on ABC/NBC/Fox/CBS. (and really figure skating gets a heck of a lot more respect and support with sports channels than some other sports (*cough*mushing*cough* for one).

Will figure skating ever warrant it's own channel?

Depends, how much is the ISU going to price gouge? that's the only thing, IMO, keeping it from happening. (It was my dream to work something like that, but alas! I got jaded by school lol)
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Thank you Senorita. I'm not often seen as an an interesting and correct poster. :mad: Just a nasty troll. :disapp:

By the way, I believe you are based in Europe, Senorita.
Seniorita tomorrow will set foot in USa :)Btw, I have another meaning of troll in my books and it is certainly not someone like you!
Would you say European newspapers cover Figure Skating competitions as they would other Winter sports?
No. Some countries like Russia though that skating is a major sport there have frequent, even daily articles about fs and skaters, and special journalists who write all the time like Verner and the other lady I dont remember the name now. France and Italy media have often articles also, besides that I dont think there is a regular column like Hersh´s in European media(whenever I find an article in greek, I m having a huge smile). But I dont think Hersh targets the general audience or he gains new fans, I think the way and what he writes are for people who already know a lot about fs. I find him very sharp and I dont know if I was not a fan of the sport and happened to read his column, if I would glue to figure skating after reading his articles.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^
That's very true about Hersh, but that is the way US sports writers do their job. Only fans of Baseball, read the the columns of sports writers who write about baseball. Since I am a fan of competitive figure skating, I read Hersh and sometimes agree or disagree with him. Why not? and I don't make a big issue of it since I was brought up to believe the only sport was baseball.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Seniorita tomorrow will set foot in USa :)Btw, I have another meaning of troll in my books and it is certainly not someone like you!
No. Some countries like Russia though that skating is a major sport there have frequent, even daily articles about fs and skaters, and special journalists who write all the time like Verner and the other lady I dont remember the name now. France and Italy media have often articles also, besides that I dont think there is a regular column like Hersh´s in European media(whenever I find an article in greek, I m having a huge smile). But I dont think Hersh targets the general audience or he gains new fans, I think the way and what he writes are for people who already know a lot about fs. I find him very sharp and I dont know if I was not a fan of the sport and happened to read his column, if I would glue to figure skating after reading his articles.

Welcome to the States, Seniorita! I hope you enjoy every minute of your trip. Take notes so we can hear about everything.

I agree with you about both Hersh and Joe. Joe, where did you get the idea that you were anything like a troll? No way!

Somewhat off topic (though every beautiful piece of music I listen to makes me want to see someone skate to at least a part of it): I'm listening to a really obscure but gorgeous work that I hope the rest of you music lovers get a chance to find and enjoy: Ralph Vaughan Williams' opera Sir John in Love. The Sir John of the title is Shakespeare's Falstaff. This is Vaughan Williams' version of The Merry Wives of Windsor, the comedic play that Verdi made into his masterpiece, Falstaff. I guess Verdi's opera has overshadowed this Vaughan Williams one, but that's too bad. VW's music is lush, summmery, and exhilarating. And since VW tends to use a lot of English folk music idioms in his melodies, it's from the same tradition as the original Shakespeare play.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Welcome to the States, Seniorita! I hope you enjoy every minute of your trip. Take notes so we can hear about everything.

Hey I m on the same time zone now as you! NY is like Legoland :D Please if someone from USA wants to adopt me :) I dont wanna go back, I think it suits me here. Plus people are so polite all day, I now think we are so rude in Europe!
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Hey I m on the same time zone now as you! NY is like Legoland :D Please if someone from USA wants to adopt me :) I dont wanna go back, I think it suits me here. Plus people are so polite all day, I now think we are so rude in Europe!

New Yorkers are polite!? I suppose compared to some Europeans... But here in the States New Yorkers have a reputation for being rude, actually. :laugh:
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
What was it about this performance that caught the eye of so many Americans?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s

Was there something so "sporty" about it or did it have more to do with things I mentioned in post #168?

Was there something special we saw in the personality and charm of the skater or was it because we thought she was just like Michael jordan and capable of superhuman athletic feats?

Some could argue for both points but I believe we were enthralled seeing the talent and beautiful artistry from a skater who was developing right before our eyes.

WOW, what a WONDERFUL fully choreographed programme including even the tiniest details. And of course perfectly to the music.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Jaana, that's one of the things that always got me about Michelle's Lori Nichol programs. There were little moments all the way through with hand movements and unusual steps that so brought out the music. For example, at the start of "Lyra Angelica," she does three quick steps backward. (You can't see it as well in the Nationals tape, because the camera's on her face, but there are European broadcasts of Worlds that show it.) I continued to love Michelle throughout her career, of course, but I found her later programs a bit emptier and more predictable. Interestingly, most of Lori's non-Michelle programs were also a bit emptier, and generally they used less interesting music. Those two ladies brought out the best in each other, the way Lennon and McCartney did in music, or Burt Bacharach and lyricist Hal David.

Seniorita, welcome! I'm so glad you're enjoying yourself, and that New Yorkers have impressed you with their politeness. Actually, I have read several reports saying that New Yorkers are surprisingly polite. For one thing, they're used to welcoming people from all over the world. I think it's because, unlike Los Angeles, people in East Coast cities tend to use mass transit. They have to get along; they're not protected in their little car kingdoms. Anyway, whatever the reason, I'm happy that you're loving the place so much.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
New Yorkers are polite!? I suppose compared to some Europeans... But here in the States New Yorkers have a reputation for being rude, actually. :laugh:
Most of those rude NYers have moved to the suburbs, and now we have many polite illegal citizens. :biggrin::biggrin:
 
Top