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Thread: Skating as art

  1. #181
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The story of Figure Skating went from snippets on Wide World of Sports to the Olympics and then to World Championships for many years. It brought in sponsors for TV showings of these events. In my opinion, no casual fan is going to look into the rules and regulations of the CoP. After so many years of watching 6.0 when Falls cost skaters medals, they are not about to accept these errors with a wrist slap.

    Most avid fans will check it out. Skaters and Coaches need to know it. Choreographers can do more without it.

    What is needs is a new method of scoring somewhere between the good points of the 6.0 sstem and the CoP.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    If you want to believe Americans loved Michelle because they thought she was a great athlete that is fine with me. I think it was alot more than that though and of course you know I am right.
    And the same for Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill. But they couldn't have reached that point if they hadn't first become great athletes representing the US in international competition and carrying Americans' patriotic rooting for them to win world and Olympic medals on the basis of their athletic excellence. If it's just a matter of looks and personality with no athletic skill, why not watch beauty pageants instead?

    But I see nothing wrong with questioning the state of skating at the moment.
    I see nothing wrong with questioning the state of skating either. But my interest is to make the sport better for the athletes, not to make it better for the fans at the expense of the athletes.

    Just about every sport under the sun is being shown on TV in USA these days. What is wrong with skating that we are seeing less andless of it?
    Maybe because there are so many other options out there now that there's a smaller share (of audience interest) left for skating. More competition for viewers' interest, not necessarily anything wrong with skating.

    The general public may well prefer to watch a show on the ice than to watch
    pure skating.

    At best, the two can be combined, within competition format or without.

    But the skaters have to learn to skate first, and be rewarded for their skills, to get to the point where they entertain for entertainment's sake.
    Last edited by gkelly; 04-06-2011 at 09:46 AM.

  3. #183
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    And the same for Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill. But they couldn't have reached that point if they hadn't first become great athletes representing the US in international competition and carrying Americans' patriotic rooting for them to win world and Olympic medals on the basis of their athletic excellence. If it's just a matter of looks and personality with no athletic skill, why not watch beauty pageants instead?



    I see nothing wrong with questioning the state of skating either. But my interest is to make the sport better for the athletes, not to make it better for the fans at the expense of the athletes.



    Maybe because there are so many other options out there now that there's a smaller share (of audience interest) left for skating. More competition for viewers' interest, not necessarily anything wrong with skating.
    Good answers but the last one on TV feels a little unambitious. Excuses are easy and solutions much harder. I wish I had some

    My views on skaters as athletes is far different than my views on how figure skating is run. No need to keep bringing up pageants vs athletes when it should be clear that I refer to skating feeling like it is run more like a pageant and less like a sport at times.

    Just so we are clear I will repeat that.
    Skaters are fine and well disciplined athletes.

    The fact that so much fuss is made about the costumes, and theatrical abilty can't be denied. It is part of the sport just like it is part of pageants.

    Joesitz has mentioned many times he would like more sport in the SP with a focus on the elements and athletic skill. His idea is typically rejected and even scorned by the artistry/pageant lovers.

    No music, no sequins....gasp!!!!

    The price a poster pays for original thoughts at times.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    I would offer all of the "usual suspects."
    Your point is well taken but hardly news.
    But what are the usual suspects? Hernando, it's clear that you have a deeper grasp on the history of the ebb-and-flow of figure skating in media than I. So what do you identify as the shift that clearly took place.

    I wonder what it would take to bring it back (not meaning another "whack" or to mid-90 levels) so we could see more or expanded coverage of skating events.
    First, identify the goal. Back to what? In 1997, American television covered the EUROS!!!! That startled me to no end - I had no idea figure skating had hit such popularity that an event where Americans were excluded from could get coverage.

    It seems we have more TV stations than at anytime in history and online coverage too. But I wasn't able to find any American coverage of 4CC on TV or online that was shown during the event.
    That is disappointing. No two ways around it.

    I think the idea that skating is a sport like baseball or football, or heaven help us like speedskating is not only a false premise but a marketing disaster.
    Now this interests me. Why do you believe this is so?

    If I were to look at this with a bit of historic perspective I might think back to the days when John Curry was producing very artistic shows that took place at Madison Square Garden and had were broadcaston Natl TV.
    Why were they as successful?
    No idea. I find what I've seen trite and boring. There's an article I'm tempted to buy that analyses the very packaging of figure skating in the 1990's.

    I think skating needs to embrace it's artistic heritage and figure out who it's audience is here. Then create something that is enjoyable to watch for more than just the very small percentage of skating fans like GS members.
    Now here's my question. Popularity tends to come at the cost of integrity. Take a look at any box office chart, TV ratings, best seller list, biggest shows on Broadway, etc. You will find the most popular ones are the ones that appeal to the lowest common denominator. If you compare to what is considered truly great, you'll find that they don't make money, that they're too challenging to really take up a big audience.

    Now, not talking about the integrity of COP or IJS or anything like that, how do you suggest they do that while still maintaining the sporting aspects.

    I find Joesitz's idea intriguing but underthought.

  5. #185
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=ImaginaryPogue;559153]



    No idea. I find what I've seen trite and boring. There's an article I'm tempted to buy that analyses the very packaging of figure skating in the 1990's.
    I think the CoP packaged figure skating to distance itself from Disson shows.

    Now here's my question. Popularity tends to come at the cost of integrity. Take a look at any box office chart, TV ratings, best seller list, biggest shows on Broadway, etc. You will find the most popular ones are the ones that appeal to the lowest common denominator. If you compare to what is considered truly great, you'll find that they don't make money, that they're too challenging to really take up a big audience.

    Now, not talking about the integrity of COP or IJS or anything like that, how do you suggest they do that while still maintaining the sporting aspects.

    I find Joesitz's idea intriguing but underthought.
    I would add on to your point about popularity tending to come at the cost of integrity, it also comes with different eras. What was once stylish and popular in the decades before the nineties, is not on the list of the younger generation. I believe the younger generation rules the waves! How that affects Figure Skating as a popular sport is moot.

    I really don't have a plan of action for revising the CoP except to change the PC setup to the old fashioned FREE SKATE.

  6. #186
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    Just about every sport under the sun is being shown on TV in USA these days. What is wrong with skating that we are seeing less andless of it?
    Governing bodies within the sport wanting more money than the sponsors/tv networks are willing to bank on. the ISU can get far more from the Asian countries and some European companies because it's a huge deal right now, so they see no reason to discount the US's broadcasts...

    however network TV does not show all sports, I don't see Soccer featured on any of the national networks, yes it has its own station, but that a niche programming. with football, baseball, basketball and golf raking in the bigger $$ that's who will continue to get the prime spots on tv.

    I don't think girls in pretty dresses or guys in sequins is what turns people off - scandal does. Joe's not far off in that people don't understand why someone who falls three times (be it a guy or a lady) ends up winning when someone who's clean ends up 5th. It has nothing to do with 6.0 vs CoP, but all about perception. The complaints of poor judging and the wrong guy winning came well before the scoring change.

    A lot of people I don't think would ever watch skating have mentioned recently (I'm talking in my real life) that they love watching it, even if they don't understand it. This are "macho men" who subscribe to the outdoor network (and two were even featured on a program on there for a moose hunt) they love the more "violent" sports of football and boxing... and yet they like figure skating too, and consider it a sport... but they hate that they don't understand how the judging system doesn't work like it's supposed to.

  7. #187
    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post

    no sequins....gasp!!!!

    The price a poster pays for original thoughts at times.
    Some of the most artistic/moving programs did not have sequins. The skater skated in plain outfits, but moved the audience to such great heights with both technical mastery and artistry.

    Then, you have some programs that "attempt" artistry through gimmicks (Urmanov's "Phantom" seemed garish to me...but then again, that was a cultural difference; his Phantom was modeled on the Russian version).

  8. #188
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Governing bodies within the sport wanting more money than the sponsors/tv networks are willing to bank on. the ISU can get far more from the Asian countries and some European companies because it's a huge deal right now, so they see no reason to discount the US's broadcasts...

    however network TV does not show all sports, I don't see Soccer featured on any of the national networks, yes it has its own station, but that a niche programming. with football, baseball, basketball and golf raking in the bigger $$ that's who will continue to get the prime spots on tv.

    I don't think girls in pretty dresses or guys in sequins is what turns people off - scandal does. Joe's not far off in that people don't understand why someone who falls three times (be it a guy or a lady) ends up winning when someone who's clean ends up 5th. It has nothing to do with 6.0 vs CoP, but all about perception. The complaints of poor judging and the wrong guy winning came well before the scoring change.

    A lot of people I don't think would ever watch skating have mentioned recently (I'm talking in my real life) that they love watching it, even if they don't understand it. This are "macho men" who subscribe to the outdoor network (and two were even featured on a program on there for a moose hunt) they love the more "violent" sports of football and boxing... and yet they like figure skating too, and consider it a sport... but they hate that they don't understand how the judging system doesn't work like it's supposed to.
    Many good points here Toni. I agree that perception is important because it is so different for many of us.

    As to soccer/football I don't know what it's like in Alaska but ESPN shows a MLS game of the week here (actually sometimes several of them) and we get all of our home teams games broadcast.

    There are also stations devoted to soccer including "Gol TV" and the "Fox Soccer channel. I also get Spanish language broadcasts of soccer , atleast 3-4 gamse a week.

    Gol and Fox are pay stations and how I wish there was a skating channel that I could subscribe to.

    I really have second thoughts about renewing my pay subscription with the outfit we are not supposed to mention here. They did not cover 4CC and are not covering Worlds.

    Next season I might give Universal a chance, and am considering switching from "Direct TV" to "Comcast" just to be able to see their coverage of skating.

    We have a golf channel, a tennis channel and lots more. I can watch soccer and /or soccer news 24 hours a day with my current setup.

    Will figure skating ever warrant it's own channel?

  9. #189
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    Will figure skating ever warrant it's own channel?
    Maybe a teddy bear company would sponsor it? Why hasn't any of them advertized on skating show?

    There was a Canadian mutual fund company that used rowing in their advertizing and branding without ever sponsoring the sport until they were shamed into it.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    Some of the most artistic/moving programs did not have sequins. The skater skated in plain outfits, but moved the audience to such great heights with both technical mastery and artistry.

    Then, you have some programs that "attempt" artistry through gimmicks (Urmanov's "Phantom" seemed garish to me...but then again, that was a cultural difference; his Phantom was modeled on the Russian version).
    Two programs come to mind:

    "Missing" by the Duchesnays
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnUMc0VnB-c


    "Love Story" by Sale/Pelletier:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRWHw...eature=related

    Both in street clothes. I think one common link is that both programs are skated by older skaters, who are more able to express a mood and present a narrative. But maybe someone else will have a different rationale. In any case, these two couples certainly make a case that sequins are not required in order to move an audience.

    As for Urmanov, who was known for his elaborate costumes, is that more a Russian approach? I know Yagudin seemed to favor less decorative clothing, even during his eligible career, and that look worked very well for him. Maybe he's in the minority among Russian skaters, though? (He just doesn't strike me as a fuss and feathers kind of guy!) When I think of the costumes worn by some of the Russian ice dancers...and even the German pair of Savchenko/Szolkowy can get a bit theatrical. Is it an Eastern European thing? Hmmm. Interesting issue.
    Last edited by Olympia; 04-06-2011 at 01:59 PM.

  11. #191
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Oh yeah

    This more than cancels out the two programs cited that did not use sequins.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eulleg0hpQE

    And more fun than a barrel of monkeys

    I posted the Duchesnays "Missing" last night on Shibs/Dance topic. Hadn't seen it for years and now twice in two days.

    Maybe I should watch more Ice Dancing because at times I enjoy it so much. V/M rarely fail to impress me and after all these years I am still amazed by what the Duchesnays and Chris Dean were doing back in the late 80's and early 90's.

    Here is an early clip of them from '82 Canadian Jr Natls and I don't know if it is me (fanboy) but even here I see something so distinctive in their skating, particularly Isabelle.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9B0t...8186D52E1897CF
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-06-2011 at 04:16 PM.

  12. #192
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    As to soccer/football I don't know what it's like in Alaska but ESPN shows a MLS game of the week here (actually sometimes several of them) and we get all of our home teams games broadcast.
    ESPN is not one of the main networks, it's a cable/sattellite channel. I was focussing on ABC/NBC/Fox/CBS. (and really figure skating gets a heck of a lot more respect and support with sports channels than some other sports (*cough*mushing*cough* for one).

    Will figure skating ever warrant it's own channel?
    Depends, how much is the ISU going to price gouge? that's the only thing, IMO, keeping it from happening. (It was my dream to work something like that, but alas! I got jaded by school lol)

  13. #193
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Thank you Senorita. I'm not often seen as an an interesting and correct poster. Just a nasty troll.

    By the way, I believe you are based in Europe, Senorita.
    Seniorita tomorrow will set foot in USa Btw, I have another meaning of troll in my books and it is certainly not someone like you!
    Would you say European newspapers cover Figure Skating competitions as they would other Winter sports?
    No. Some countries like Russia though that skating is a major sport there have frequent, even daily articles about fs and skaters, and special journalists who write all the time like Verner and the other lady I dont remember the name now. France and Italy media have often articles also, besides that I dont think there is a regular column like Hersh´s in European media(whenever I find an article in greek, I m having a huge smile). But I dont think Hersh targets the general audience or he gains new fans, I think the way and what he writes are for people who already know a lot about fs. I find him very sharp and I dont know if I was not a fan of the sport and happened to read his column, if I would glue to figure skating after reading his articles.

  14. #194
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    ^^^
    That's very true about Hersh, but that is the way US sports writers do their job. Only fans of Baseball, read the the columns of sports writers who write about baseball. Since I am a fan of competitive figure skating, I read Hersh and sometimes agree or disagree with him. Why not? and I don't make a big issue of it since I was brought up to believe the only sport was baseball.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Seniorita tomorrow will set foot in USa Btw, I have another meaning of troll in my books and it is certainly not someone like you!
    No. Some countries like Russia though that skating is a major sport there have frequent, even daily articles about fs and skaters, and special journalists who write all the time like Verner and the other lady I dont remember the name now. France and Italy media have often articles also, besides that I dont think there is a regular column like Hersh´s in European media(whenever I find an article in greek, I m having a huge smile). But I dont think Hersh targets the general audience or he gains new fans, I think the way and what he writes are for people who already know a lot about fs. I find him very sharp and I dont know if I was not a fan of the sport and happened to read his column, if I would glue to figure skating after reading his articles.
    Welcome to the States, Seniorita! I hope you enjoy every minute of your trip. Take notes so we can hear about everything.

    I agree with you about both Hersh and Joe. Joe, where did you get the idea that you were anything like a troll? No way!

    Somewhat off topic (though every beautiful piece of music I listen to makes me want to see someone skate to at least a part of it): I'm listening to a really obscure but gorgeous work that I hope the rest of you music lovers get a chance to find and enjoy: Ralph Vaughan Williams' opera Sir John in Love. The Sir John of the title is Shakespeare's Falstaff. This is Vaughan Williams' version of The Merry Wives of Windsor, the comedic play that Verdi made into his masterpiece, Falstaff. I guess Verdi's opera has overshadowed this Vaughan Williams one, but that's too bad. VW's music is lush, summmery, and exhilarating. And since VW tends to use a lot of English folk music idioms in his melodies, it's from the same tradition as the original Shakespeare play.

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