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Thread: Skating as art

  1. #46
    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    I must say, the more "exclusive" we are when it comes to art, the less of there will be to go around. Right now, there are several members of congress looking to defund arts programs. It's better to embrace all forms of art, rather than rope off creations as art and as non-art. Sure, the Birth of Sean Preston by Daniel Edwards is not my cup of tea, but it is art. My Friend Robert is no less a ballet than Swan Lake. Hip hop and skating aren't below ballet. Sure, my programs are mere fingerpaint compared to the bold strokes of Kwan, V/M, G/G, and Asada, but my coach and I still call it art.

  2. #47
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    was her olympic glory to be or not to be? ... well... not to be!

    sorry couldn't resist.


    Is this a golden medal which I see before me,
    the ribbon toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee. (*gasp*)
    I have thee not, and yet I see thee still!
    Oh, thou art but a medal a of the mind,
    a false creation,
    proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain.

    (-1 GOE for hexameter in the first line. )

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    was her olympic glory to be or not to be? ... well... not to be!


    sorry couldn't resist.
    But her eternal summer shall not fade,
    Nor lose possession of the fair she ow'st
    Nor shall Death brag she walketh in its shade,
    When in eternal YouTube to time she grow'st.
    So long as fans can breathe, and screens go on...
    So long lives this, and this gives life to Kwan.


    (It was too tempting....)

    BlueDog, I agree that we should be opening art out, not closing it up. It's not as if there's so much art in the world that we'll have a glut of it if we don't crack down! In fact, there's less art than we need, because it civilizes us and gives us light in dark moments.

    Is all art the same in terms of quality? Certainly not. Like you, Joe, I'd put something like Brahms above something like (fill in the latest hip-hop sensation here). Some of that is opinion, of course, but some of it is a legitimate distinction between "high" art (which we hoi-polloi shouldn't be afraid of--we're entitled to it too) and street or popular art. There's room for both. Also, both can be commercial, and both can be done strictly for love and not money. (Check out some of the finer church choirs and some street hip-hop performances if you don't believe me.)

    In some ways I think of skating as a "gateway" art form. People who are intimidated by ballet or classical music can encounter strains of it here and seek more of it out. The same is true of movie sound tracks such as the one for Titanic. That's a beautiful orchestral work, and maybe it can imbue listeners with enough love for such sounds that they'll find Debussy somewhere down the road.

    In any case, the points everyone is bringing up are invigorating and thought-provoking! What fun it is even to disagree on such a knotty and satisfying subject. And, by the way, I think even Socrates and/or Plato asked "What is art?" (If someone could verify, thanks in advance.) So we're in good company.

  4. #49
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    So long as fans can breathe, and screens go on...
    So long lives this, and this gives life to Kwan.


    "You don't like Kwan?

    "G'wan!"

    (Ogden Nash).

  5. #50
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    What does art do for you? To me, art allows me to explore other cultures, see different perspectives, and explore the human condition in all it's facets. It mesmerizes me with beauty or ugliness. It evokes a range of emotions that I often don't have the ability to express on my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Which restrictions, and how are you defining "figure skating program"?
    All my comments have to do with competitive figure skating programs. I don't preclude the possibility of seeing a skating show I consider art. Also not betting on it.

    Some are more successful in achieving their artistic aims than others. Some aim higher -- are more highbrow -- than others. But they set their own rules and exist completely outside of competition rules. Have you never seen any, or never seen any that you think can hold their own with stage dance as art? John Curry would be so disappointed. Not to mention Jackson Haines. :(
    I'm willing to be convinced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Here I think you are making the wrong comparison. Kwan should not be compared to Shakespeare but to a Shakespearean actor. It's Lori Nichols who draws the Shakespeare comparison. (Good luck with that one, Lori!) At any rate, Shakespeare is a stretch because the genres are so utterly different, IMO.
    I see no qualms with comparing artists across genres, I'll stick to actors/performers and skaters for the purpose of this debate. Compare Michelle Kwan to Meryl Streep. In terms of numbers, both have had an unusually long streak of domination: world medals/oscar nominations etc. Meryl Streep is perhaps the most acclaimed actress ever, with classical training and a broad range of roles (and breathtaking beauty and box office numbers nowadays). Does Lyra Angelica, The Red Violin, East of Eden, Scherezade (pick four of your own) match up against Sophie's Choice, A Cry in the Dark, Adapation and Angels in America (ditto)? To me, artistically, it categorically doesn't. Does it for you? If so, how?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    No, I do not disagree with all of your arguments and I have alot of respect for your opinions, even if I disagree with them at times.
    I just get the feeling you are fixated on the CoP and come up with some unusual analogies defending it.

    Usain Bolt and figure skating? Shakespeare and skating? The Mona Lisa and skating (Ok, that was mathman )
    You're arguing figure skating is an art. How is it unusual to evaluate what you perceive to be art amongst other artforms? And how do you feel I'm fixated on COP?

    I agree skating is a sport. But I can't overlook the fact that it uses music, costumes and sometimes theatrical makeup and gestures as part of it's presentation.
    Beauty pageants do the same thing. Do you accept that as an artform? And if we're gonna get into it, I'll point out that the more theatrical the costume design etc, the more likely it's designed to obscure athletic weakness (see DomShabs at the Olympics)

    What is it about Yuna and figure skating that captured the minds and HEARTS of her countrymen and many fans around the world?

    Usain Bolt wears a "costume" only to the extent that running nude, unlike the ancient Greeks is not acceptable in our society. Perhaps Bolt's clothing does help streamline him a bit too. just as the high tech shoes help him run faster.
    1. What is it about Usain Bolt capturing the HEARTS and minds of country men and his many fans around the world?

    2. Agreed with the shoes.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    I must say, the more "exclusive" we are when it comes to art, the less of there will be to go around. Right now, there are several members of congress looking to defund arts programs. It's better to embrace all forms of art, rather than rope off creations as art and as non-art. Sure, the Birth of Sean Preston by Daniel Edwards is not my cup of tea, but it is art. My Friend Robert is no less a ballet than Swan Lake. Hip hop and skating aren't below ballet. Sure, my programs are mere fingerpaint compared to the bold strokes of Kwan, V/M, G/G, and Asada, but my coach and I still call it art.
    Yeah, today they announced the British Arts Council cuts, and I'm rather depressed

  7. #52
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Beauty pageants do the same thing. Do you accept that as an artform? And if we're gonna get into it, I'll point out that the more theatrical the costume design etc, the more likely it's designed to obscure athletic weakness (see DomShabs at the Olympics)


    .
    There you go again with what feels to be an absurd comparison.

    Anybody could write, "children wear costumes on Halloween, does that make trick or treating an art?"

    No, it just makes it fun

    ETA: My references to skating as a "pageant" have more to do with how the "sport" has been run over the years and is not meant to diminish the tremendous athletic skills displayed by the skaters.

    I still see very little in common between Usain Bolt sprinting down a track and figure skating which is a sport that includes performance and artistic components by definition.
    Last edited by janetfan; 03-30-2011 at 03:05 PM.

  8. #53
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imaginary Pogue
    I'm willing to be convinced.
    This is pretty much the only competitive skating program ever that people are willing to attach the label "art" to. We shall not pass this way again. (John Curry, 1976 Olympics.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc

  9. #54
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imaginary Pogue
    I'm willing to be convinced.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-QNtxwpTSE

    This is art!

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Yes, Kristi forever
    Last edited by janetfan; 03-30-2011 at 03:27 PM.

  11. #56
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    A few non-competitive performances that work for me as comparable to stage dance as an artform:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXJqsoFwUic

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qRyOzq_ofQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt7uF7pFQ04

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IglCaWXULZs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T0gqjJO3HE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGh2tE3HRCE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoI5KOzPDdU (skating in the later parts, it's a TV special using dance, costumes, sets, lights, etc. as well as skating to tell a whole story)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3WXYFcS2Gw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7wRcOv9rPA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsNLTpGcebk

    Now, if you've seen a lot of dance concerts, you've probably seen "better" art there. And worse. And about the same level of quality, in a different medium. As has already been mentioned, all artforms can include bad or mediocre as well as good art.

    If this kind of skating were not so obscure compared to the sport, if there were more of it, we'd see more of the good stuff (along with more of the mediocre).

  12. #57
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    I must say, the more "exclusive" we are when it comes to art, the less of there will be to go around. Right now, there are several members of congress looking to defund arts programs. It's better to embrace all forms of art, rather than rope off creations as art and as non-art. Sure, the Birth of Sean Preston by Daniel Edwards is not my cup of tea, but it is art. My Friend Robert is no less a ballet than Swan Lake. Hip hop and skating aren't below ballet. Sure, my programs are mere fingerpaint compared to the bold strokes of Kwan, V/M, G/G, and Asada, but my coach and I still call it art.
    hmmm. I believe it is better to embrace one"s personal taste as Art, and like religion, not shove it down the throats of others.

    Hip Hop, btw, has a lot of rhythm in it which is part of musical timing.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    was her olympic glory to be or not to be? ... well... not to be!


    sorry couldn't resist.
    While skaters goals are to win medals, some fans look to beautiful skating as artistic whether there is a medal or not. Kwan's got a bushel of medals anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    friends don't like being talked down to because they don't agree - or are told they are stupid because they haven't experienced the "great art" of New York or wherever. I would think being a mature adult one would understand how relationships - even those online - work.
    Wow and from a MoD too. No one mentioned New York, and I believe one can critique a performance, and its open to discussion without slurs. Art is personal, I stand by that, if I lose friends over it, so be it.

  14. #59
    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    ^^

    No one said anything about ramming other art down people's throats. Like you said, it's a matter of personal taste, and personal taste dictates that if you don't like it, then you needn't watch it. For example, Weaver and Poje's SD is my favourite program out of any skater/s this year. I can watch it all day. I have not made it through their FD in one sitting.

    Also, you're right; one can critique performance, and we all do it in this board. What would this board be without critiquing performances? However, there is a way of critiquing people's work without offending others. There is also a way of being tactful and tongue-in-cheek. I believe it is called the ART of tact?

  15. #60
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    I was looking for something else when I came upon this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q_rsG4R7qI

    I find most of what she says here to be pertinent to figure skating and to performance art in general.
    Last edited by janetfan; 03-30-2011 at 07:38 PM.

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