France's noble gesture resonates in midst of crisis | Page 2 | Golden Skate

France's noble gesture resonates in midst of crisis

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Yes, Gailhaguet politiks and can get pretty shady at times, and I imagine while he does feel for the Japanese people, he also has other considerations. But what does that have to do with the Inman matter? DG does not control the French media. It was Inman who decided to send the Plushenko e-mail, without even having the context for those remarks (which has never been clarified), not the French media. I don't think Inman is corrupt or should have been suspended for life as Johnny suggested, but it was inappropriate. If he wants to make an example of someone, he should bring up retired skaters, not active ones. Imagine if a Russian judge had sent out a similar e-mail right before Olys regarding Lysacek's faulty triple axel technique, or suggested that Chan is overmarked on IN - Carroll and the USFSA/Nichol and Skate Canada would have been screaming about it, the media would have had a field day, and justifiably so. Not to mention, bringing Joubert into it when it wasn't his statement was beyond the pale.

As a more general point, people shouldn't pretend that only the French and the Russians play politics. Other federations are just more subtle about it, or called out less often by fans and the media.

Exactly!:thumbsup:
 

Kitt

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Country
United-States
What price?

Being buried in 6th place after the uncharacteristically clunky-landing Lambiel and a falling Chan. Even Daisuke looked like he was sweating his 3rd place standing after seeing Johnny's performance.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
In the morning when I read this I was laughing alone because it is so last year news, all I was thinking was that if i were a judge and Mr Iman had sent the mail to me and i had the number of unread mails I ve told you i have,I would have missed the note and judge wrong!Tragedy!
Anyway it was a funny thought!
always glad to read your posts :)
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Being buried in 6th place after the uncharacteristically clunky-landing Lambiel and a falling Chan. Even Daisuke looked like he was sweating his 3rd place standing after seeing Johnny's performance.

In a discipline that is run in a more fair and sporting manner Johnny would have done better in Vancouver. I am not even a fan of his (I do think he is a good skater though).

No doubt the "pageant effect" was in play as many of us think his 6th place ranking was anything but fair, let alone "sporting."

How did the CoP differ from 6.0 in the way Jonny was ranked in Vancouver? Was it sport or was it pageant when we saw Lambiel and Chan placed above him :think:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
How did the CoP differ from 6.0 in the way Jonny was ranked in Vancouver? Was it sport or was it pageant when we saw Lambiel and Chan placed above him :think:

By the numbers (LP):

TES

Weir: 79,67
Chan: 79.30
Lambiel: 78.49
Takahashi: 73:48

PCS

Takahashi: 84:50
Lambiel: 83.60
Chan: 82.00
Weir: 77.10

Average P&E/CH/INT

Takahashi: 8.75
Lambiel: 8.41
Chan: 8.25 (Chan's total PCS were boosted by SS and TR)
Weir: 8.25

How would they have been scored under 6.0? Anybody's guess, but Lambiel did two successful quads and probably would have been first in this group even without a triple Axel.

Takahshi fell on his quad (but at least he tried one), his only triple-triple was under-rotated (but that didn't cpunt so much inder 6.0), and got edge calls on both of his two Lutzes (with judges scores ranging from -3 to 0) -- again, under 6.0 it is not clear what the judges would have done.

Hard to say what his second mark would have been. The program was technically sloppy, but he had oodles of charisma and musicality.

Chan fell on his 3A, messed up his 3Lz, did only a 4F+3T as a combination. His dazzling twinkle-toes were less dazzling than usual.

Weir did not do a quad or a 3A-3T combination. But then, none of them did.

6.0 did not look kindly on falls. I think it might have gone Lambiel, Weir, Chan, Takahashi (just counting the long program).

Oda also might have broken into that group. In CoP he got a -2 deduction for "interruption of program." Not sure how that would have played out in 6.0. Under 6.0 they usually let the performers continue, but how much the score was lowered -- if at all -- was up to each judge.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
It is to be expected that a "mathman" will try to make a point through numbers. :)

Let's cut to the chase and eliminate all of your CoP voodoo.

Under 6.0, thefirst mark and the second mark, how would have Weir been scored? And Chan?

Less numbers needed to come to that conclusion, and there was a "feeling" of sorts going into Vancouver about how straight the competition would be.

Although I did not have a problem on certain levels with Inman's email, I can easily see why others might have. Timing, timing and timing. Fair or not, well intended and innocent or not it felt conveniently political to fans from the other side of the pond.

Then there was home ice to consider as well as where federations would place their weight and concentrate their backroom manuevering.

If you think Cop has eliminated federation lobbying I respectfully suggest you bury yourself in a long pile of numbers. Long enough that the numbers will keep you occupied and distracted about thinking of how skating works.

Sorry, but a few rows of numbers does no make a case for me but can easily fool new fans who beleive a TR or IN mark simply becasue they read it.

I thought Chan's performance was lacklustre and far below Johnny in Vancouver. Not even close enough to argue about and like I said rows of numbers won't change my opinion.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Weir also got an edge call on his 3F (-1.20) and he reciveived mostly -2 GOE on his FSSp3 (-0.54). Before the Olympics, I answered an enquiry about his chances and said that his program was too simple to medal, without thinking about any politics at all. He looked clean and pretty. He took off prettily on the wrong edge for his 3F and he glided slowly and prettily between elements. Lack of transition meant less energy required and easier entries into his jumps, things that counted under COP.

Chan's fall cost him dearly, -5.20 total including -1 deduction. His 3Lz received -1.8. So COP was not easy on him either.

I can't relate Weir's placement to his campaign against Inman. It was a panel of international judges who rightfully gave the win to Lysacek the American. They were also overly generous with Plushenko's PCS IMO. However, I don't see any underscoring with Weir's PCS against the three PCS elites - Lambiel, Takahashi, and Chan, all of whom were superior to Weir in most of the Program Components.

It was also a matter of expectation. Weir gave the self professed best performance of his life and assumed he should medal regardless of competition of the day. Chan gave the second worst performance of his career but his skating skills and choreography were so superior that he still edged out Weir, though he too won no medal. Nothing to do with Inman or nationalities.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
How would they have been scored under 6.0? Anybody's guess, but Lambiel did two successful quads and probably would have been first in this group even without a triple Axel.

Lambiel did two flawed Quads, not two "successful" Quads. :mad:
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
It was a messy night and, except for two Americans, Lysacek and Weir, the competitors mostly brought subpar performances. The protocols show a bunch of negative GOE from top to bottom. The top 9, from Lysacek to Abbott, had difficult programs except for Weir who had neither quads nor high level transitions. The cleanest of them won the Olympic Gold. Weir, viisbly clean with a relatively simple program, got a 6th place finish, edging out Oda by 0.33 point total. I don't understand what his entitlement was based on. At his peak as the US champion, he was 5th at 2006 Olympics. At 2010 Olympics, as the 3rd American man, with only one Worlds medal in his career (3rd in 2008), somehow Weir felt he was a medal contender against current and former World champions and Olympics medalists, as well as the young up and comers. :confused:

No, it wasn't politics. It's the competition, with rules and scoring system the same and clearly laid out for all. With Weir's program, his chances were slim even before he started skating. Bravo for doing his best. But it wasn't enough to be near the podium.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Lambiel did two flawed Quads, not two "successful" Quads. :mad:

Interesting comments and very fair coming from a Lambiel fan.

CoP be damned, a laymen could see Patrick's flaws were more severe in Vancouver than Johnny's. And USA fans did not BUY IT.

I don't want to say Patrick looked like a "deer in the headlights" in Vancouver because such a remark would be unkind to the deer of the world. ;)

Johnny's flip? Gimme a freakin' break. I saw many things more questionable and flat out worse in Vancouver than that. Evan's 3A combo comes to mind as did a bunch of jumps that resembled the "Leaning Tower of Pisa."

We saw Flatt had a chance to catch Rochette and she was conveniently nailed with phantom calls that took her out of medal contention.

Surprise, surprise. Not sport, but figure skating under the same ISU GANG that brought us the SLC scandal.

Now I wait for an uber CoP fan like to post the deductions in Flatt's jumps.
Helloooooo, just because the CoP makes a call does not validate it. :scowl:

Other agendas, one's we are not privy to determined the outcomes in Vancouver.

For sure, a North American sweep of the Dance podium was just a part of it. :yes:
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Helloooooo, just because the CoP makes a call does not validate it.:

Only your call counts then? Sadly, even if judging were subjective and opinion based, and even if you were a judge, there would still be other judges' opinions in the mix.

All competitions have rules. Competitors win or lose by these rules. Are fans assessing the placements by these rules to be despised and dismissed as CoP uber fans? I always say Lysacek deserved the win even though I am no fan of his nor did I particularly enjoy or appreciate his winning skate. There are flawed performances I like a lot better. But competition is competition. One's favorite doesn't necessarily win as one wishes.

Other agendas, one's we are not privy to determined the outcomes in Vancouver.

Just because you make the call does not validate it. How and what do you know about what you are not privy to? I will buy it when you present convincing supporting evidences. Until then, phantom agendas, conspiracies, and politics are just easy convenient villains to brandish about.

For sure, a North American sweep of the Dance podium was just a part of it. :yes

:confused:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here is what I think.

1. Going back in time and guessing who might have won a contest if different rules had been in place is an academic exercise at best.

Would the Philadelphia Athletics have beaten the New York Giants in the 1905 Worlds series if batters had been allowed four strikes instead of three (thus negating, in part, Christy Mathewson's dominance. ;) )? They weren't, and they didn't.

2. What kind of scoring system we like best -- 6.0 or CoP -- has little to do with whether or not the Olympic games are marred by crooked politics. Politicians politic and crooks crook whatever the system. In particular, the idea that Weir might have been scored higher in 6.0 than with CoP does not provide evidence one way or another on the issue of whether or not Weir was low-balled for political/personal reasons. He could have been low-balled in either system. Rachael Flatt could have been deliberately held below Joannie Rochette -- or not -- in either system. Lambiel could have been scored overgenerously -- or not -- in either system.

SkateFiguring said:

I think Hernando means, Belbin and Agosto should have placed ahead of Domnina and Shabulin, but political wheeling and dealing intervened to prevent a North American sweep. :cool:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Here is what I think.

1. Going back in time and guessing who might have won a contest if different rules had been in place is an academic exercise at best.

Would the Philadelphia Athletics have beaten the New York Giants in the 1905 Worlds series if batters had been allowed four strikes instead of three (thus negating, in part, Christy Mathewson's dominance. ;) )? They weren't, and they didn't.

2. What kind of scoring system we like best -- 6.0 or CoP -- has little to do with whether or not the Olympic games are marred by crooked politics. Politicians politic and crooks crook whatever the system. In particular, the idea that Weir might have been scored higher in 6.0 than with CoP does not provide evidence one way or another on the issue of whether or not Weir was low-balled for political/personal reasons. He could have been low-balled in either system. Rachael Flatt could have been deliberately held below Joannie Rochette -- or not -- in either system. Lambiel could have been scored overgenerously -- or not -- in either system.



I think Hernando means, Belbin and Agosto should have placed ahead of Domnina and Shabulin, but political wheeling and dealing intervened to prevent a North American sweep. :cool:

A good take on my post mathman.
But I do want to be clear that I thought (just my opinion) that Johnny outskated Patrick in Vancouver.

I also could see that from the choice of the compulsory dance (it was clear it was the only Dance the Russians had a chance with) to the way the OD and FD were scored it was not hard to see agendas were at work in Ice Dancing ....again ....sigh.

Those who are not familiar with the most crooked of all skating disciplines and I dare say of any judged sport might not know enough to get my point..

I am not a Johnny fan and not a Rachael fan either. But I have been watching since before many of the newer CoP = Bible fans and have seen it all.

Maybe I am jaded but still I prefer that at times to being so easily fooled.

I still don't get how a few posters get so bent out of shape when the integrity of Speedy and ISU is challenged.

They are admitted cheaters and were forced to change the scoring system and clean up their act or be kicked out of the Olympic movement back in 2002. (Not opinion but FACT).

The day I was born my momma told me anyone who cheats you once will do it again given the chance.

My momma did not make that up and it is something any person of reason understands and only fools ignore. I truly wish IOC (gad , the irony :laugh: ) would lower the boom again on ISU. Maybe they could start by making judge's marks transparent.

IF ISU objects because anonymous marks are necessary to maintain integrity.....well then I think my point is well taken and the "sport" is by ISU's admission still full of too many behind the scene manipulators.
 
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cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
as a more general point, people shouldn't pretend that only the french and the russians play politics. Other federations are just more subtle about it, or called out less often by fans and the media.

word.
 

Kitt

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Country
United-States
Yes, and you can be sure that Frank Carroll knows how to game the system by now, having been cheated by it in 1980. So I guess he was about due.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I've never really gotten over Michelle coming in second at Nagano, so I guess I don't let myself get too invested in placement anymore, especially at the Olympics. Even not considering the quirks of judging, the best skaters often give less than their best performances at the Olympics. And sometimes they win nonetheless--witness Scott Hamilton in 1984. I'm just happy when I see a performance that's out of the ordinary, one that does the skater(s) proud. In this Olympics, I most enjoyed Lambiel's programs, the short especially, and Takahashi's among the men. Among the women, the entire final six were a gift. Ice dance was amazing up and down the rankings, and thank goodness Shen and Zhao held it together in pairs. I didn't think of the judges much at all. I don't know what this says about my expertise as a fan, but I sure had a great time.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
As a more general point, people shouldn't pretend that only the French and the Russians play politics. Other federations are just more subtle about it, or called out less often by fans and the media. Now, I will not do CPR on the dead horse that is SLC, but 1. it was never fully investigated, and the roles people played are still not fully clear (read The Second Mark) and 2. There were so many shenanigans with the judging back in that quad (some of the results at 2001 Worlds were ludicrous), and it almost seems like it was just a matter of time before something like that was exposed.

Thank you. A full investigation would've revealed that there were no angels.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I still don't get how intelligent posters like Pogue, gkelly and skatefiguring get so bent out of shape when the integrity of Speedy and ISU is challenged.

1. Nobody is bent out of shape. Sometimes a poster's absolute but unsupported statements simply invite debate for its own sake, statements like people are bent out of shape because your statements are challenged.

2. Making unfounded declarations is not a proper challenge to someone's integrity. All this started because few trusted Didier's integrity to begin with and his motive was suspected and speculated. But suspicions and speculations are not facts to be declared as such.

Most people are not completely naive as to continuously believe and trust those with proven/convicted misdeeds. One can be guarded, distrust, and want to vet such person's words and deeds, but a blanket judgement that such persons and all associated with them are completely crooked and corrupt is unfair and inaccurate, especially when suspicions based on such premise are declared as truths and all kinds of conjectured events are invented and spun any which way one wishes.

Even a correct premise does not automatically support all scenarios built on it. Anybody could construe different scenarios with the same premise to suit their own biases. Opinions and beliefs stated as facts do not qualify them as facts and others need not accept them as facts. Chastising those not falling in line with such declarations and questioning their intelligence are not convincing arguements.

It's entirely your right to believe someone or an enitre organization as corrupt and you have the freedom of speech to express that opinion. But accusations of actions and events is a different matter for they could easily fall into unjust or even illegal catergories.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
It's entirely your right to believe someone or an enitre organization as corrupt and you have the freedom of speech to express that opinion. But accusations of actions and events is a different matter for they could easily fall into unjust or even illegal catergories.

Thankyou, and yes it is my right.

So what are you going to do, sue me :eek: :rofl:
 
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