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Thread: France's noble gesture resonates in midst of crisis

  1. #16
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    I remember well the brouhaha last year re Judge Inman's email. The whole thing was so ridiculous that I didn't bother to find out it was Didier behind it. Inman was raising the issue of scoring the PCS properly and independently from TES, qouting Plushenko's own words that both Joubert and himself didn't have any transition because they were focusing on their jumps. (I think Plushenko was complaining about Joubert scoring higher PCS than he at the Euro, which Plushenko won. At that time his program was really empty and his spins extremely slow though he improved on both by the Olympics.) Somehow it got spun into a political plot to promote North American Men. I never saw the logic in all those accusations.

    PCS have been more appropriately scored since but Joubert still seems to get high scores on some non-existent components though he has also tried to add non jump contents to his programs.

  2. #17
    Custom Title Kitt's Avatar
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    Why Johnny felt he had to weigh in on this is beyond my comprehension, especially since it was right before the Olys and Inman would be judging him. Plushenko and Joubert can take care of themselves! He then paid the price.
    Last edited by Kitt; 03-31-2011 at 09:52 PM. Reason: spelling

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitt View Post
    Why Johnny felt he had to weigh in on this is beyond my comprehension, especially since it was right before the Olys and Inman would be judging him. Plushenko and Joubert can take care of themselves! He then paid the price.
    What price?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I remember well the brouhaha last year re Judge Inman's email. The whole thing was so ridiculous that I didn't bother to find out it was Didier behind it. Inman was raising the issue of scoring the PCS properly and independently from TES, qouting Plushenko's own words that both Joubert and himself didn't have any transition because they were focusing on their jumps. (I think Plushenko was complaining about Joubert scoring higher PCS than he at the Euro, which Plushenko won. At that time his program was really empty and his spins extremely slow though he improved on both by the Olympics.) Somehow it got spun into a political plot to promote North American Men. I never saw the logic in all those accusations.

    PCS have been more appropriately scored since but Joubert still seems to get high scores on some non-existent components though he has also tried to add non jump contents to his programs.
    I'm actually a bit tired of this topic. But since you've mentioned it again, I have to say something.

    I don't care whether Didier or anyone was behind it or not. Sending e-mail to every judge talking about one of the skaters' faulty point priory to the competition where the said skater was going to compete, no matter how you slice it, no matter from which angle you see it, was an extreme move. As if those specially trained international judges and Mr.Inman himself had never realized, at least had never fully realized the obvious fact, and had always been judging it wrong in previous competitions untill Plushenko honestly pointed it out - out of his own mysterious reasons.

    The timing and the method of this move was obviously undermining the top European skaters and helping North American men. Whether it helped to shape the result or not is another matter.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-06-2011 at 08:42 AM.

  5. #20
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I'm actually a bit tired of this topic. But since you've mentioned it again, I have to say something.

    I don't care whether Didier or anyone was behind it or not. Sending e-mail to every judge talking about one of the skaters' faulty point priory to the competition where the said skater was going to compete, no matter how you slice it, no matter from which angle you see it, was an extreem move. As if those specially trained international judges and Mr.Inman himself had never realized, at least had never fully realized the obvious fact, and had always been judging it wrong in previous competitions untill Plushenko honestly pointed it out - out of his own mysterious reasons.

    The timing and the method of this move was obviously undermining the top European skaters and helping North American men. Whether it helped to shape the result or not is another matter.
    Yes, Gailhaguet politiks and can get pretty shady at times, and I imagine while he does feel for the Japanese people, he also has other considerations. But what does that have to do with the Inman matter? DG does not control the French media. It was Inman who decided to send the Plushenko e-mail, without even having the context for those remarks (which has never been clarified), not the French media. I don't think Inman is corrupt or should have been suspended for life as Johnny suggested, but it was inappropriate. If he wants to make an example of someone, he should bring up retired skaters, not active ones. Imagine if a Russian judge had sent out a similar e-mail right before Olys regarding Lysacek's faulty triple axel technique, or suggested that Chan is overmarked on IN - Carroll and the USFSA/Nichol and Skate Canada would have been screaming about it, the media would have had a field day, and justifiably so. Not to mention, bringing Joubert into it when it wasn't his statement was beyond the pale.

    As a more general point, people shouldn't pretend that only the French and the Russians play politics. Other federations are just more subtle about it, or called out less often by fans and the media. Now, I will not do CPR on the dead horse that is SLC, but 1. it was never fully investigated, and the roles people played are still not fully clear (read The Second Mark) and 2. There were so many shenanigans with the judging back in that quad (some of the results at 2001 Worlds were ludicrous), and it almost seems like it was just a matter of time before something like that was exposed.
    Last edited by Buttercup; 04-01-2011 at 02:20 AM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Yes, Gailhaguet politiks and can get pretty shady at times, and I imagine while he does feel for the Japanese people, he also has other considerations. But what does that have to do with the Inman matter? DG does not control the French media. It was Inman who decided to send the Plushenko e-mail, without even having the context for those remarks (which has never been clarified), not the French media. I don't think Inman is corrupt or should have been suspended for life as Johnny suggested, but it was inappropriate. If he wants to make an example of someone, he should bring up retired skaters, not active ones. Imagine if a Russian judge had sent out a similar e-mail right before Olys regarding Lysacek's faulty triple axel technique, or suggested that Chan is overmarked on IN - Carroll and the USFSA/Nichol and Skate Canada would have been screaming about it, the media would have had a field day, and justifiably so. Not to mention, bringing Joubert into it when it wasn't his statement was beyond the pale.

    As a more general point, people shouldn't pretend that only the French and the Russians play politics. Other federations are just more subtle about it, or called out less often by fans and the media.
    Exactly!

  7. #22
    Custom Title Kitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    What price?
    Being buried in 6th place after the uncharacteristically clunky-landing Lambiel and a falling Chan. Even Daisuke looked like he was sweating his 3rd place standing after seeing Johnny's performance.

  8. #23
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    ..
    In the morning when I read this I was laughing alone because it is so last year news, all I was thinking was that if i were a judge and Mr Iman had sent the mail to me and i had the number of unread mails I ve told you i have,I would have missed the note and judge wrong!Tragedy!
    Anyway it was a funny thought!
    always glad to read your posts

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitt View Post
    Being buried in 6th place after the uncharacteristically clunky-landing Lambiel and a falling Chan. Even Daisuke looked like he was sweating his 3rd place standing after seeing Johnny's performance.
    In a discipline that is run in a more fair and sporting manner Johnny would have done better in Vancouver. I am not even a fan of his (I do think he is a good skater though).

    No doubt the "pageant effect" was in play as many of us think his 6th place ranking was anything but fair, let alone "sporting."

    How did the CoP differ from 6.0 in the way Jonny was ranked in Vancouver? Was it sport or was it pageant when we saw Lambiel and Chan placed above him

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    How did the CoP differ from 6.0 in the way Jonny was ranked in Vancouver? Was it sport or was it pageant when we saw Lambiel and Chan placed above him
    By the numbers (LP):

    TES

    Weir: 79,67
    Chan: 79.30
    Lambiel: 78.49
    Takahashi: 73:48

    PCS

    Takahashi: 84:50
    Lambiel: 83.60
    Chan: 82.00
    Weir: 77.10

    Average P&E/CH/INT

    Takahashi: 8.75
    Lambiel: 8.41
    Chan: 8.25 (Chan's total PCS were boosted by SS and TR)
    Weir: 8.25

    How would they have been scored under 6.0? Anybody's guess, but Lambiel did two successful quads and probably would have been first in this group even without a triple Axel.

    Takahshi fell on his quad (but at least he tried one), his only triple-triple was under-rotated (but that didn't cpunt so much inder 6.0), and got edge calls on both of his two Lutzes (with judges scores ranging from -3 to 0) -- again, under 6.0 it is not clear what the judges would have done.

    Hard to say what his second mark would have been. The program was technically sloppy, but he had oodles of charisma and musicality.

    Chan fell on his 3A, messed up his 3Lz, did only a 4F+3T as a combination. His dazzling twinkle-toes were less dazzling than usual.

    Weir did not do a quad or a 3A-3T combination. But then, none of them did.

    6.0 did not look kindly on falls. I think it might have gone Lambiel, Weir, Chan, Takahashi (just counting the long program).

    Oda also might have broken into that group. In CoP he got a -2 deduction for "interruption of program." Not sure how that would have played out in 6.0. Under 6.0 they usually let the performers continue, but how much the score was lowered -- if at all -- was up to each judge.

  11. #26
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    It is to be expected that a "mathman" will try to make a point through numbers.

    Let's cut to the chase and eliminate all of your CoP voodoo.

    Under 6.0, thefirst mark and the second mark, how would have Weir been scored? And Chan?

    Less numbers needed to come to that conclusion, and there was a "feeling" of sorts going into Vancouver about how straight the competition would be.

    Although I did not have a problem on certain levels with Inman's email, I can easily see why others might have. Timing, timing and timing. Fair or not, well intended and innocent or not it felt conveniently political to fans from the other side of the pond.

    Then there was home ice to consider as well as where federations would place their weight and concentrate their backroom manuevering.

    If you think Cop has eliminated federation lobbying I respectfully suggest you bury yourself in a long pile of numbers. Long enough that the numbers will keep you occupied and distracted about thinking of how skating works.

    Sorry, but a few rows of numbers does no make a case for me but can easily fool new fans who beleive a TR or IN mark simply becasue they read it.

    I thought Chan's performance was lacklustre and far below Johnny in Vancouver. Not even close enough to argue about and like I said rows of numbers won't change my opinion.

  12. #27
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    Weir also got an edge call on his 3F (-1.20) and he reciveived mostly -2 GOE on his FSSp3 (-0.54). Before the Olympics, I answered an enquiry about his chances and said that his program was too simple to medal, without thinking about any politics at all. He looked clean and pretty. He took off prettily on the wrong edge for his 3F and he glided slowly and prettily between elements. Lack of transition meant less energy required and easier entries into his jumps, things that counted under COP.

    Chan's fall cost him dearly, -5.20 total including -1 deduction. His 3Lz received -1.8. So COP was not easy on him either.

    I can't relate Weir's placement to his campaign against Inman. It was a panel of international judges who rightfully gave the win to Lysacek the American. They were also overly generous with Plushenko's PCS IMO. However, I don't see any underscoring with Weir's PCS against the three PCS elites - Lambiel, Takahashi, and Chan, all of whom were superior to Weir in most of the Program Components.

    It was also a matter of expectation. Weir gave the self professed best performance of his life and assumed he should medal regardless of competition of the day. Chan gave the second worst performance of his career but his skating skills and choreography were so superior that he still edged out Weir, though he too won no medal. Nothing to do with Inman or nationalities.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 04-01-2011 at 04:14 PM.

  13. #28
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    mathman has your time machine finally worked?

  14. #29
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    How would they have been scored under 6.0? Anybody's guess, but Lambiel did two successful quads and probably would have been first in this group even without a triple Axel.
    Lambiel did two flawed Quads, not two "successful" Quads.

  15. #30
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    It was a messy night and, except for two Americans, Lysacek and Weir, the competitors mostly brought subpar performances. The protocols show a bunch of negative GOE from top to bottom. The top 9, from Lysacek to Abbott, had difficult programs except for Weir who had neither quads nor high level transitions. The cleanest of them won the Olympic Gold. Weir, viisbly clean with a relatively simple program, got a 6th place finish, edging out Oda by 0.33 point total. I don't understand what his entitlement was based on. At his peak as the US champion, he was 5th at 2006 Olympics. At 2010 Olympics, as the 3rd American man, with only one Worlds medal in his career (3rd in 2008), somehow Weir felt he was a medal contender against current and former World champions and Olympics medalists, as well as the young up and comers.

    No, it wasn't politics. It's the competition, with rules and scoring system the same and clearly laid out for all. With Weir's program, his chances were slim even before he started skating. Bravo for doing his best. But it wasn't enough to be near the podium.

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