France's noble gesture resonates in midst of crisis

Violet Bliss · Apr 1, 2011

Hernando said:
Thankyou, and yes it is my right.

So what are you going to do, sue me

No, I'm not that stupid.

Neither am I so stupid as to take your words on your construed scenarios and sweeping statements. You are not the only one with a smart Momma.

Dodhiyel · Apr 1, 2011

It's late, and I'm too tired to write very well, so please forgive any clumsiness on my part. I am just remembering the audience reaction to Johnny's skate. When an audience is awed by a performance, that means something. There are two very different approaches to gauging a figure skating performance. One approach is to try to score it numerically according to a set of rules. Another approach is to ask oneself how aesthetically satisfying one found it to be. When one watches ballet, one automatically uses the aesthetic method. When one watches speed skating, one automatically looks for minute measurement differences as all-important. That is really the problem; the ISU president is a speed skater, and because of that, truly aesthetic values are in danger of going the way of the dodo bird, i.e., heading toward extinction, at least in single skating. A frenetic attempt to squeeze in as many points as possible does not tend to maximize the beauty of a programme. It just tends to maximize the points.

Personally, I do not enjoy watching a frenetic programme. Such a thing bores me. I want to see beauty, control, and puissance, not desperate scrabbling about. I want to be awed, thrilled, deeply moved, or any combination of those things. That's why I watch figure skating, and to tell the truth, I think that is why most people do.

Mathman · Apr 1, 2011

Dodhiyel said:
It's late, and I'm too tired to write very well, so please forgive any clumsiness on my part. I am just remembering the audience reaction to Johnny's skate. When an audience is awed by a performance, that means something. There are two very different approaches to gauging a figure skating performance. One approach is to try to score it numerically according to a set of rules. Another approach is to ask oneself how aesthetically satisfying one found it to be. When one watches ballet, one automatically uses the aesthetic method. When one watches speed skating, one automatically looks for minute measurement differences as all-important. That is really the problem; the ISU president is a speed skater, and because of that, truly aesthetic values are in danger of going the way of the dodo bird, i.e., heading toward extinction, at least in single skating. A frenetic attempt to squeeze in as many points as possible does not tend to maximize the beauty of a programme. It just tends to maximize the points.

Personally, I do not enjoy watching a frenetic programme. Such a thing bores me. I want to see beauty, control, and puissance, not desperate scrabbling about. I want to be awed, thrilled, deeply moved, or any combination of those things. That's why I watch figure skating, and to tell the truth, I think that is why most people do.

^ Yes, I agree, that is the dilemma.

On the "Art" thread Blue Dog posted Michelle Kwan's 1998 short program. In those years she did 3Lz+2T. 2A, and 3T. She ran off a succession of the finest miniature gems in the history of the sport.

Then the sport advanced a little and she had to up the ante. She had to go with a triple flip instead of triple toe. Her short programs were never as good again. Sport or art?

Buttercup · Apr 2, 2011

Kitt said:
Yes, and you can be sure that Frank Carroll knows how to game the system by now, having been cheated by it in 1980. So I guess he was about due.

Oh, please, that's a deader horse than SLC, and there's been even less proof for it than for the (alleged) 2002 conspiracy. Not that it has anything to do with 2012 Worlds, but I would encourage you to read Sonia Bianchetti's account of the judging in 1980; Ms. Bianchetti was the referee of the men's event, which was supposedly part of the fix against Fratianne. The final paragraph in particular seems relevant to the tangent this thread has been on:

...Linda was a great freeskater. We can include her name on the list of victims of the compulsory figures, together with Janet Lynn and Toller Cranston. It is said that Linda was made to believe by her coach that she had been robbed of the gold medal because of dishonest judges. And this is hard for a competitor to accept. To blame the judges for the results of their skaters is unfortunately rather common among the coaches. If they only could consider the harm they are doing to the sport and to these young kids who suddenly see all their dreams vanish because of something which is beyond their control. Such an attitude can affect all their future life.

Just because Frank Carroll is sure some of his skaters are/were wuzrobbed doesn't make it true.

Of course there is politikking in skating, and judges sometimes make questionable calls, whether intentionally or not. But even influential federations can't get weak skaters to the top of the podium. Patrick Chan may have been somewhat generously scored in Vancouver, but all it did was get him into the gala - where he likely would have performed anyway. I am certainly not a fan, but it's obvious that all the wheeling-dealing in the world wouldn't have gotten Evan Lysacek the OGM without his strong track record and successful performance when others faltered. And if Anton had fallen rather than bobbled, B/S would not have won in SLC. At the end of the day, what matters is what the skaters do on the ice.

Back on topic, the French offer was likely made as a show of support rather than a serious possibility. The news from Japan is not great and who knows when the Japanese federation might be able to host another major event. Let's not forget that skating, as important as it is to those involved in it and as much as it can sometimes move us, is secondary here.

Violet Bliss · Apr 2, 2011

Back on topic, the French offer was likely made as a show of support rather than a serious possibility. The news from Japan is not great and who knows when the Japanese federation might be able to host another major event.

Maybe M. Didier learned from a Mr. A. Bunker. "When generosity doesn't cost you anything, you might as well go all the way." :biggrin:

prettykeys · Apr 2, 2011

Mathman said:
^ Yes, I agree, that is the dilemma.

On the "Art" thread Blue Dog posted Michelle Kwan's 1998 short program. In those years she did 3Lz+2T. 2A, and 3T. She ran off a succession of the finest miniature gems in the history of the sport.

Then the sport advanced a little and she had to up the ante. She had to go with a triple flip instead of triple toe. Her short programs were never as good again. Sport or art?

And how many other skating programs have 3Flips ruined?!?!! Damn those 3Flips! *shakes fist*

mot · Apr 4, 2011

According to this Japanese news source, the ISU has turned down French federation's offer of the 2012 WC to be held in Tokyo instead of Nice, as they'd asked for the right for 2013 WC in return, Cinquanta stated.

Japanese federation is looking to bid for the 2015 WC meanwhile and Cinquanta said that he'd support the bid if submitted.

wallylutz · Apr 4, 2011

mot said:
According to this Japanese news source, the ISU has turned down French federation's offer of the 2012 WC to be held in Tokyo instead of Nice, as they'd asked for the right for 2013 WC in return, Cinquanta stated.

Japanese federation is looking to bid for the 2015 WC meanwhile and Cinquanta said that he'd support the bid if submitted.

So...Didier really hasn't changed his tune at all, the whole "We all have a heart" BS notwithstanding.

I don't know about you, but the Japan Times author must feel like a fool now - at least he wrote in English, so most Japanese would not even get to read his naive article so he probably won't be laughed at while walking in the streets of Japan. Everyone and their dog knows the kind of person Didier Gailhaguet is within the figure skating circle. While everyone plays politics to some extent, no other skating federations aside from France and Russia have this legacy of one man owning their federation forever and ran them as their private business. That's a big difference.

mskater93 · Apr 4, 2011

Mathman;558640On the "Art" thread Blue Dog posted Michelle Kwan's 1998 short program. In those years she did 3Lz+2T. 2A said:
Actually, Kwan started doing the 3F in 1998 in the SP after the stress fracture in her left foot. She also removed the 3T-3T combo from her FS and made the 3T her last element in the FS that season because it wouldn't affect the balance of the competition or program.

sorcerer · Apr 5, 2011

mot said:
According to this Japanese news source, the ISU has turned down French federation's offer of the 2012 WC to be held in Tokyo instead of Nice, as they'd asked for the right for 2013 WC in return, Cinquanta stated.

Japanese federation is looking to bid for the 2015 WC meanwhile and Cinquanta said that he'd support the bid if submitted.

For a moment I thought, why didn't Speedy turn down just "the right for 2013 WC in return?" part, but the next moment I realized that might be exactly what he did and that in that case the first proposal was taken back by the proposer as a consequence of this refusal of this (proposer's) additional condition.

Not only Gallagher looks foolish but the whole Japanese media now seems dumb to have taken the original proposal seriously. The Canadian fed turning down Didier was well known prior to this, so they believed it was something different than that.

lcd · Apr 6, 2011

It struck me as an obvious opportunity to make a "grand gesture" which would be awkward to grant given the follow on implications.

France's noble gesture resonates in midst of crisis

Violet Bliss

Dodhiyel

Mathman

Buttercup

Violet Bliss

prettykeys

mot

wallylutz

mskater93

sorcerer

lcd

Match Penalty

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