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Thread: Will The Shibutani's Get A Top 6 Finish in World Debut?

  1. #31
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I hate to break you but but this has nothing to do with IJS. A judged sport has conventions and they can't possibly be eliminated so long as human inputs are required in order to get to the results. Ice Dance is quite different from the other 3 disciplines in that being well matched is particularly critical since Singles has no matching issue and Pairs focus mostly on unison first and foremost. You don't need to be handsome couple in order to win Pairs events - but you need a really big man and a small woman. Pairs and Ice Dance have very different expectations of what each partner should do and need. But by & large, Ice Dance couples are far more physically attractive than Pairs teams for obvious reasons, even though I am sure some obstinate posters will try to argue otherwise and claim it's still all subjective. :sheesh:

    Your reply does not "break me" as I think Ice Dancing can be entertaining and even beautiful to watch but I hardly consider it sport.
    It is different from the other disciplines and for me harder to judge.

    The use of the word "sport" seems to be getting too much play. Ice Dancers are very good athletes and very good skaters.

    We typically hear of "dance competitions" more than "the sport of dance."

    With that in mind I think of Ice Dancing as a competition that depends on more than just athletic aspects to produce a winner or a podium.

  2. #32
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    ^^^^^
    Well said. Even in competitive ballroom dances, it is just that of a competion on who showed the best performance. I don't see anything wrong with that. A Tango is a Trango and the best Tango tonight is......

    However, in Ice Dance, there seems to be a need for sports. Therefore the increase in acrobatic lifts and twizzles do make Ice Dance somewhat of a sport.

  3. #33
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Sorry to join the digression ^^^, this is about the Shibutanis. I haven't read all of this thread so I am not aware of how man top teams are entered. In addition to the Canadian and US stars, there may be others from those countries that could be considered top teams. There is also the French team and the budding Russians coming into play. The Shibutani's have a good chance of being in top 5. No?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    Your reply does not "break me" as I think Ice Dancing can be entertaining and even beautiful to watch but I hardly consider it sport.
    It is different from the other disciplines and for me harder to judge.

    The use of the word "sport" seems to be getting too much play. Ice Dancers are very good athletes and very good skaters.

    We typically hear of "dance competitions" more than "the sport of dance."

    With that in mind I think of Ice Dancing as a competition that depends on more than just athletic aspects to produce a winner or a podium.

    There are a lot of sports that require a subjective mark beyond the athletic aspect. Diving and aerial skiing come to mind. No one would ever suggest these are not sports. Ice dance does have very specific criteria to measure lifts, step sequences, compulsory patterns, spins, twizzles, etc.. There is a technical mark and a component mark. Just like diving and aerial skiing. It is every bit a sport like the other skating disciplines. Just because the skaters don't jump doesn't mean it isn't a sport. In my opinion, in order to earn a strong PCS score, technical skill and athletic excellence are required. Good ice dancers are athletes first and foremost, and I would stand up the ice dancers I know next to any hockey player or basketball player. These are people who train 20+ hours per week year round. They have strong mental control, wash-board stomachs of steel, flexibility, all over muscle strength, muscle control and strong aerobics. One of the calorie burning sites I have visited noted that an adult-size male competitive figure skater (I'm including ice dance) burns over 600 calories an hour while training. Wow. What part of that is not sport? It is insulting to suggest it is not sport to the many athletes who dedicate tremendous time, energy and money to pursue the SPORT of ice dance. Perhaps the athletics/skills vs performance debate is a little more clear at the lower levels of skating. By the time a team reaches the Senior ranks and earns a spot on the international stage, the vast majority of teams are able to manage the technical requirements. The top athletes in the world should all be able to earn level 4's across required elements. Then decisions comes down to the performance, degree of difficulty etc. The PCS marks. And so that is what we end of debating most. But make no mistake: ice dance is a SPORT, which also gives it a spot in the Olympics. Furthermore, if we want to see the growth and development of skating, and want to be taken seriously by the general public, and want to be able to earn funding and sponsorships, we need to help people see the SPORT side of ice dance.

  5. #35
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    Being a good athlete is not the issue here. Neither is how many years are required to become a good ice dancer. I actually agree with the spirit of your post but why does it feel like much of what you said could be applied to "ballroom dancing," which is still not an "Olympic sport."

    Does anyone doubt that good ballroom dancers are better athletes than the "athletes" who play "curling." (Risking Canadian wrath with that comment )

    Lots of sweat and hard work is needed to repaint your house, the more skill you have the better the job will turn out. That doesn't make house painting a sport (sorry for the "Pogueish" analogy, couldn't help myself as I am in the middle of painting my house ).

    Bobby Fisher was known to sweat off as much as 7 pounds during a championship chess match. It took him years and uncountable hours to learn to play so well.

    Does that make chess a sport? It is certainly a great and very competitive "game" or contest.

    I have no trouble thinking of Ice Dancers as finely tuned and even exceptional athletes. I don't mind calling it a "sport" as your thoughts and comments from Joesitz about the added tricks do make it more demanding.

    Now back to the "sport" of painting for me. Did I mention the time requirements and drying factors? So many elements go into a good paint job
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-06-2011 at 12:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    Being a good athlete is not the issue here. Neither is how many years are required to become a good ice dancer. I actually agree with the spirit of your post but why does it feel like much of what you said could be applied to "ballroom dancing," which is still not an "Olympic sport."

    Does anyone doubt that good ballroom dancers are better athletes than the "athletes" who play "curling." (Risking Canadian wrath with that comment )

    Lots of sweat and hard work is needed to repaint your house, the more skill you have the better the job will turn out. That doesn't make house painting a sport (sorry for the "Pogueish" analogy, couldn't help myself as I am in the middle of painting my house ).

    Bobby Fisher was known to sweat off as much as 7 pounds during a championship chess match. It took him years and uncountable hours to learn to play so well.

    Does that make chess a sport? It is certainly a great and very competitive "game" or contest.

    I have no trouble thinking of Ice Dancers as finely tuned and even exceptional athletes. I don't mind calling it a "sport" as your thoughts and comments from Joesitz about the added tricks do make it more demanding.

    Now back to the "sport" of painting for me. Did I mention the time requirements and drying factors? So many elements go into a good paint job

    This is ridiculous. Are you saying that ice dance should not be in the Olympics (only sports are allowed in the Olympics) because there is a subjective mark? What about gymnatistics? Diving? Aerial skiing? Snowboarding? None of these are sports? What is your definition of a sport? And as much as I like to watch ballroom dancing, trying to compare ballroom to ice dance completely under-rates the athletic and technical abilities required to be an ice dancer. These are not in the same league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    This is ridiculous. Are you saying that ice dance should not be in the Olympics (only sports are allowed in the Olympics) because there is a subjective mark? What about gymnatistics? Diving? Aerial skiing? Snowboarding? None of these are sports? What is your definition of a sport? And as much as I like to watch ballroom dancing, trying to compare ballroom to ice dance completely under-rates the athletic and technical abilities required to be an ice dancer. These are not in the same league.
    I said NO SUCH THINGS in the post you quoted
    What is your definition of reading comprehension
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-06-2011 at 12:39 PM.

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    Then I'm lost. From your posts above, you ranked ice dance with ballroom dance, and said that ice dance is not a sport, but a competition because the result depends on more than just athletic aspects. You later made the argument that hard work and being fit doesn't define a sport, mentioning that painting one's house is not a sport, and neither is chess. You also said above that the use of the word "sport" seems to be getting too much play. You recognize that ice dancers are good athletes and skaters, but don't seem to want to call ice dance a sport. So then my question remains what is your definition of sport?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    Then I'm lost. From your posts above, you ranked ice dance with ballroom dance, and said that ice dance is not a sport, but a competition because the result depends on more than just athletic aspects. You later made the argument that hard work and being fit doesn't define a sport, mentioning that painting one's house is not a sport, and neither is chess. You also said above that the use of the word "sport" seems to be getting too much play. You recognize that ice dancers are good athletes and skaters, but don't seem to want to call ice dance a sport. So then my question remains what is your definition of sport?
    The post you quoted I responed favorably to what you had written and said Ice dancer's are good athletes and I have NO problem calling Ice Dancing a sport. I was being glib (paint fumes) but agreed with you.

    BTW, ballroom dancing has been trying to become accepted as an Olympic sport but don't believe it has been accepted yet.

    Much of what I hypothesized about was based on what Wally said and he is far, far more knowlegdeable about Ice Dancing and skating than I am.

    I earlier remarked about the use of the word "sport" and how it can get overemphasized at times.

    I like Ice Dancing, but don't follow it as closely as singles.
    I like the Shibs too and think they have a pleasant style and I do try not to miss them if Ice dancing is being broadcast and they are competiting.

  10. #40
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    At this point, with COP, I actually find it easier to judge ice dance than other parts of the sport. So I guess it is now more sporty?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    At this point, with COP, I actually find it easier to judge ice dance than other parts of the sport. So I guess it is now more sporty?
    As long as we have comments like this from well known skating officials there will be a certain lack of trust about the integrity of the scoring.

    http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/figureska...t-returns.html

    "In Tallinn, he expressed his admiration for the leading American ice dancers. “For me they are the best, but the Canadian lobby,” he said, raising his eyebrows and letting his voice trail off."

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    There are a lot of sports that require a subjective mark beyond the athletic aspect. Diving and aerial skiing come to mind. No one would ever suggest these are not sports. Ice dance does have very specific criteria to measure lifts, step sequences, compulsory patterns, spins, twizzles, etc.. There is a technical mark and a component mark. Just like diving and aerial skiing. It is every bit a sport like the other skating disciplines. Just because the skaters don't jump doesn't mean it isn't a sport. In my opinion, in order to earn a strong PCS score, technical skill and athletic excellence are required. Good ice dancers are athletes first and foremost, and I would stand up the ice dancers I know next to any hockey player or basketball player. These are people who train 20+ hours per week year round. They have strong mental control, wash-board stomachs of steel, flexibility, all over muscle strength, muscle control and strong aerobics. One of the calorie burning sites I have visited noted that an adult-size male competitive figure skater (I'm including ice dance) burns over 600 calories an hour while training. Wow. What part of that is not sport? It is insulting to suggest it is not sport to the many athletes who dedicate tremendous time, energy and money to pursue the SPORT of ice dance. Perhaps the athletics/skills vs performance debate is a little more clear at the lower levels of skating. By the time a team reaches the Senior ranks and earns a spot on the international stage, the vast majority of teams are able to manage the technical requirements. The top athletes in the world should all be able to earn level 4's across required elements. Then decisions comes down to the performance, degree of difficulty etc. The PCS marks. And so that is what we end of debating most. But make no mistake: ice dance is a SPORT, which also gives it a spot in the Olympics. Furthermore, if we want to see the growth and development of skating, and want to be taken seriously by the general public, and want to be able to earn funding and sponsorships, we need to help people see the SPORT side of ice dance.
    I'm definitely with Northern Dancers on this one. I also think the IJS has made Ice Dance more sporting by the way it is now judged with specific elements that must be done in each dance. As for the Shibs - I said when I first saw them practice in Canton in Sept that they would be competitive this year and so they are. They could very well make top 6 if they skate like they did at Nationals. And someone said they don't have power - wrong! Their glide across the ice is powerful with great deep edges, which is why they get good PC scores.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    As long as we have comments like this from well known skating officials there will be a certain lack of trust about the integrity of the scoring.

    http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/figureska...t-returns.html

    "In Tallinn, he expressed his admiration for the leading American ice dancers. “For me they are the best, but the Canadian lobby,” he said, raising his eyebrows and letting his voice trail off."
    Really, you do realize you are now quoting Didier Gailhaguet, one of the masterminds behind the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympic scandal, whom at the time was returning to his first Olympic after being banned through the 2006 Olympic Games. And you honestly believe he had an admiration for the American Ice Dance team when at the time of this quote, he was frantically lobbying for Delobel/Scheonfelder of France, 02/12/2010??? You know, I happened to be in the Vancouver Olympics at that time and no one beats Didier Gailhaguet when it comes to dirty tricks and behind the scene lobbying - absolutely no one. And you may want to reference this thread from the Edge:

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...idst-of-crisis

    "We all have a heart..." by Didier Gailhaguet

    Except, his ulterior motive always comes out later and now the Japanese media looks like fool to even listen to him in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    I'm definitely with Northern Dancers on this one. I also think the IJS has made Ice Dance more sporting by the way it is now judged with specific elements that must be done in each dance. As for the Shibs - I said when I first saw them practice in Canton in Sept that they would be competitive this year and so they are. They could very well make top 6 if they skate like they did at Nationals. And someone said they don't have power - wrong! Their glide across the ice is powerful with great deep edges, which is why they get good PC scores.
    Yes, for this year and emphasizing on that - this year. In the long-run, there are other issues that may cloud the outlook.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Really, you do realize you are now quoting Didier Gailhaguet, one of the masterminds behind the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympic scandal, whom at the time was returning to his first Olympic after being banned through the 2006 Olympic Games. And you honestly believe he had an admiration for the American Ice Dance team when at the time of this quote, he was frantically lobbying for Delobel/Scheonfelder of France, 02/12/2010??? You know, I happened to be in the Vancouver Olympics at that time and no one beats Didier Gailhaguet when it comes to dirty tricks and behind the scene lobbying - absolutely no one. And you may want to reference this thread from the Edge:

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...idst-of-crisis

    "We all have a heart..." by Didier Gailhaguet

    Except, his ulterior motive always comes out later and now the Japanese media looks like fool to even listen to him in the first place.
    I know who he is as does any serious skating fan. But perception Wally. What about a substancial majority of casual fans who look at skating more seriously evey four years during the Olympics?

    It is easy enough to see how his remarks could get a few people thinking, "skating is a silly little sport full of cheaters and will never change."

    Those who know who this guy is could be equally surprised to see he is back in the sport and president of his federation again.

    That is another perception. We do need to consider this through a wider lens at times.

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