Bradley wants to 'bring home some hardware' | Page 10 | Golden Skate

Bradley wants to 'bring home some hardware'

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Ordinal judging has more mathematical subtlety to it than add-up-the-points scoring.

To give a trivial example of what I mean, consider this “controversial” result from Vancouver.

Domnina and Shabulin: 207.64
Belbin and Agosto: 203.07.

There is no mathemnatical ambiguity about who won. There is no misuderstanding about why Domnina and Shabulin won. They won because they got more points.

If there is a controversy it not about the scoring system, it is about those lyin’, cheatin’, politickin’ judges that rigged the whole thing in advance and gave high marks for a crapola skate by the Russians, while unfairly lowballing Belbin and Agosto.

Bungee cords have nothing to do with point-total scoring versus ordinal scoring.

For contrast, consider these ordinals given to three skaters, A, B, C

…………....Judge #1….Judge #2…..Judge #3
First...............A...............B............C
Second...........B...............C.............A
Third..............C...............A............ B

Who won?

Who won? It looks to me like all three skaters have one 1st, 2nd and 3rd place ordinal. Is it a tie?

Back to my point of which "bungee cords" are key.

It doesn't matter to me what type of scoring system is used if the SAME PEOPLE who put up with and were part of the manipulation and cheating are still running the show.

I don't care as much as you might think if skating is scored by 6.0 or the CoP. Both had flaws but I never saw the problem in skating as coming from the system and absolutely saw it coming from ISU and various federation officials.

So from my point of view your ordinal example has little meaning but allowing bungee cords for an inured team has major, "can't look the other way one more time" meaning.

Something about foxes and hen houses comes to mind. ;)
And I can't forget "we had to go with anonymous scoring to try and "cut down" on the cheating."

Yikes :eek: the ultimate confession which had an impact most of you here refuse to come to terms with. It was a turn off that skating never recovered from in USA.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
What about the points skaters get when they splat? I think they need to land a jump before any points can be awarded.

Well, you know, and I know, and some others know that the landing validates the jump. Without it, where's the jump? how they dreamed up this partical credit nonsense is beyond me.

Two triple axels
Attempt 1
Attempt 2?

Do you believe that both display the same (that is to say, zero) technical ability?
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
An interesting question. But in the scoring system I use neither would get credit. In my world that would mean no points for either jump.

Mao's first jump disrupted the flow of her program much more than in the second example. I would score based on what happened and how it effected the program.

Mao's first failed jump would cost her more than the second. Neither jump would count but because a program is not jumps alone but a continuous flowing presentation her second jump would hurt her overall score less in my system.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Now, how would you score flutzes/lips and urs? I get Joesitz. He's saying these things aren't the elements, therefore they shouldn't get anything. I understand that and would be intrigued to see it applied.
 

janetfan

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Joined
May 15, 2009
I really don't see lips and flutzes so easily on TV but don't mind the wrong edge penalties if they are reasonable.

If I ask myself what is worse, a correct edge take off with full rotations ending in a splat or a borderline edge with borderline URs on a well landed jump with flow (Mirai comes to mind) I prefer the latter.

I really can't come to terms with three falls in an SP being scored as a success. It is a disaster and should be scored as such.

I also don't think in soccer a shot off the woodwork should count for half a goal.
In baseball, if a batter strikes out on three pitches he is out. If he runs a full count, maybe fouls off a few pitches and then gets the third strike he is still out.

No partial credit in sport but I do see how it applies in art.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I tend to agree. A multi-fall program is terrible (regardless of it being the SP or FP, but in the SP it obviously feels worse). MY feeling, though, is that negating the element isn't saying the program (as a whole) was a disaster. Just those elements. Additionally, should someone fall three times on non-element components, the effect to the program is arguably more deleterious but less impactful in terms of scoring vs potential scores.

Another way of putting it: I think we can all agree that falls/visible errors affect the program more. So I feel that's where the major impact should be felt (in the PCS).

Additionally, if you're gonna say no partial credit in sport, then aren't you by defnition for lips/flutzes/URs being scored as zeroes as well?
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
IIRC the argument that was made for giving credit for attempted jumps is so that skating didn't take a huge step backwards where skaters would not attempt the bigger jumps. Before any of the "more mature" crowd jumps down my throat, I'm not saying I buy the argument, I just recall that as being the thought process behind it.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yikes :eek: the ultimate confession which had an impact most of you here refuse to come to terms with. It was a turn off that skating never recovered from in USA.

There is not really anything controversial about the topic of cheating, judging scandals, bungee cords, toe-tapping and the like. Everybody is against cheating and political gamesmanship in figure skating. I will be happy to go on a good rant about it if that is what you are waiting for.

However, the topic that came up for discussion on this thread, when you posted the Christine Brennan article, was specifically about how the CoP scoring system is harmful to the sport. That is a topic that interests me. I think that if we want to discuss that topic (maybe we don't :) ), then we should draw the battle lines clearly. Here is what is wrong witht the CoP, in the view of many skaters, coaches, officials, commentators, and other experts.

(a) The public is not used to it, does not understand it, and does not like it.

(b) The CoP encourages point-chasing, resulting in paint-by-numbers programs which stifle artistic expression.

(c) Free skating is by nature comparative -- "I can skate better than you" -- rather than something that is to be measured against an objective standard.

The counter-arguments are

(a') The public doesn't give a rusty hoot about how skating contests are judged.

(b') CoP programs are just as artistic -- or not -- as 6.0 programs were.

(c') meh -- nit-picky egghead sophistry.

(signed: your friendly neighborhood Nit-picky Egghead Sophist.)
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
mathman, good post, but I feel that you are in denial.

When the cheating was exposed in 2002 it reasonated much more than you are willing to admit.
Had the Olympics been in Japan, france or somewhere else the scandal might not have been as huge.

I have a bunch of borderline skating fans as friends and family members that gave up after 2002.

They wonder why I still watch, and typically say, "who cares about that cheating excuse for a sport anymore?"

I see we disagree, but 2002 made it clear beyond any doubt that skating resulsts were manipulated for years.

The fact that Speedy admitted as much and that it is still going on was disatrous.

Tell you what, if the the Canadians want a skate off against USA I say , anytime, anyplace.

But no ISU officials, particularly the first vice president. Let's see who is best in a fair and sporting contest.

That, I am afraid to say is too much to hope for.

Pageant yes, sport, no.

Brennana's remarks from the article about skating giving up the posting of scores by judge/federation and going anonymous is a fair point you could address. What did Brennan call it," one of the greatest mysteries in all of sport as she wondered how they were still in power?
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
What is Mathman denying?

His list of reasons/excuses don't address a major part of the problem.

Should we argue if it is sunny today? How is that relevant?

If the USA public doesn't care there are reasons for it. I say fair play is a big part of it.

Poor Evan won the OGM and it is nothing like when Brian B or Scott won. The controversy caused by Plushy and Mishin took someof the tarnish off but the truth is most Americans don't care.

Get it, they don't care. I say it is because they look at skating the same way they see Miss America. A thing from the past that is simply not relevant here anymore and since we know it is not fair because the president of ISU said so it has been replaced by fans of winter sports with newer and cleaner feeling sports.

Whatever happened to "Yuna will revive skating in USA?"

No offense to Yuna or her fans but give me a break :laugh:

If Yuna had been allowed to take her show to several other cities in N. America she might have had some impact.

Again, back to ISU. They told the Olympic Ladies champion if she toured during the GP season they would ban her from Worlds.

Smart decision :rolleye:
 
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demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
What is Mathman denying?

I am trying to figure that out too. I have not visited this thread in a few days and I am trying to
get a feel of what is actually being discussed here. I must be missing something. Is this still the Bradley thread?

I think Ryan has a good shot of placing 4th or 5th.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I am trying to figure that out too. I have not visited this thread in a few days and I am trying to
get a feel of what is actually being discussed here. I must be missing something. Is this still the Bradley thread?

I think Ryan has a good shot of placing 4th or 5th.

Atleast it is not the ChainGang thread any longer. Small steps and patience grasshopper. :)
 
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Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
I am trying to figure that out too. I have not visited this thread in a few days and I am trying to
get a feel of what is actually being discussed here. I must be missing something. Is this still the Bradley thread?

I think Ryan has a good shot of placing 4th or 5th.

This has turned into another discussion about 6.0 vs CoP, cheating judges, proper scoring of elements, decline of skating in US, etc. :biggrin: I guess it's the only thing worth discussing until Worlds, when we can then get to the business of discussing who was robbed, who was overscored, etc. :laugh:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I, too, am struggling to see what it is you think we disagree about.

I think you are right and maybe we agree about more than I realize.

I don't know, so much of my skating memories revolve around seeing the scores by judge/federation getting flashed across the screen.

I remember watching scores for the Duchesnays going up and looking in shock at the 5.2 from the Canadian judge.

I may not have liked it, but I knew right at that moment why the Duchesnays did not win that day.
This looking it uo the next day on the internet business may be gratifying and even "cool" to newbies but it is highly annoying to me. :p

BTW, with all I mentioned I have some strong feelings against the USA federation and how they have been scoring skaters lately.

All we have to do is see that our two singles skaters with the higest scoring potential in front of Intl judges will not be competing at Worlds.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Unfortunately, one of them did not skate well when it counted and totally lost a spin box at Nationals. What did you want the judges to do, give her a huge (underserved) PCS score, or score what was on the ice that night? I believe the judges did the right thing (scored what was on the ice that night), even though I wished it had been reversed.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
One skater always scores 10 to 20 to even 30 points higher at Natls than what she gets in front of Intl judges.

Did you miss that part :think:
 
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