Bradley wants to 'bring home some hardware' | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Bradley wants to 'bring home some hardware'

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
It sounds to me a major source of all kinds of problems for US figure skating is that there are two sets of skaters, those who perform well at home but not internationally and vice versa. And a skater may even switch from one set to the other in different years! IOW, hardly any skater performs well both at home and abroad, specifically both at Worlds and the prerequisite Nationals. This year it even seems like there is a set that burst out of the gate and another set who brought it at the Nationals.

What are the problems to fix? Maybe one or more of the following:

  • Skaters' consistencies - If the only consistency is that most top skaters are headcases, or that most have sloppy unreliable techniques liable to be called by an international Tech Panel, there may be something systemic to look at and change.

  • Judges' and Tech Panel's consistency - Is the standard aligned with international judging? Is it different due to incompetence, biases, or agendas? Is there too much inflation and is the inflation evenly applied to all skaters? Is the judging fair?

  • Selection criteria - Maybe there should be a balanced evaluation of both national and international results, as adopted by some other federations.

International success depends on the USFSA sending the best and ensuring they do their best at Worlds. The popularity of the sport depends on one or more truly outstanding skaters, preferably a beautiful, charismatic Ladies World Champion, or at least a medalist if the beauty and charisma factors are high.

eta. Maybe all will be well once Jeremy gets his boots right. Read his interview on Icenetwork. I started a thread on it and his new look.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
All good reasons, all feel applicable and so many of them I'm not sure which are the most pertinent. :think:

It feels to me that US Natl judges are not quite in step with Intl judges.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Sep 14, 2008
Country
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Really, there was no completed jump in either case. When there is no completed jump, there should be no score. According to CoP you judge what is shown on the ice. She did not show completed jumps in either case.

A better example from Pogue would have been a fall on a fully-rotated 3Axel rather than that awkward, underrotated one Mao did.

CoP does indeed judge what is shown on the ice, in theory, and doing a rotated 3Axel and falling on it is better than doing no jump at all. Jumping and pulling in for that amount of rotation requires skill and energy, regardless if the jump is landed or not. Points must be given for what skaters are able to do. Many skaters could never hope to rotate a 3Axel in their life; being able to accomplish that rotation shows a SKILL. The skater did something. That's more than nothing and thus it must be given some amount of points.

Everyone needs to realize that when a skater starts a program it's kind of like a fighting video game. You have 100% health but every time you are hit by an attack (or in this case, whenever the skater performs a move) your health drops. Jumping a 3Axel drains a skater's stamina. If they don't accomplish the landing that shows a lack of control, and thus it definitely needs to be worth significantly less points, but the skater still expended energy and displayed some amount of technique. That needs to be rewarded.

This is why adding a Quad to a program makes the ENTIRE program more difficult. When you start your program with a Quad you are automatically using, let's say, 10% of your energy. From that point on you are skating the program with 90% energy. In comparison, opening with a 3Lutz would only use up maybe 5% of your energy and you'd have 95% of your energy left for the remainder of the program. People who don't include the Quad are better able to backload the program and include more transitions because the program is easier. They have more energy to expend on doing such things.

That's also why a fall on a Triple Axel needs to be worth more than a Single Axel or doing no jump at all. A skater who at least attempts the rotations is expending that energy. If a skater just pops the jump into nothing they have more energy for the next element of the program.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
A better example from Pogue would have been a fall on a fully-rotated 3Axel rather than that awkward, underrotated one Mao did.

CoP does indeed judge what is shown on the ice, in theory, and doing a rotated 3Axel and falling on it is better than doing no jump at all. Jumping and pulling in for that amount of rotation requires skill and energy, regardless if the jump is landed or not. Points must be given for what skaters are able to do. Many skaters could never hope to rotate a 3Axel in their life; being able to accomplish that rotation shows a SKILL. The skater did something. That's more than nothing and thus it must be given some amount of points.

Everyone needs to realize that when a skater starts a program it's kind of like a fighting video game. You have 100% health but every time you are hit by an attack (or in this case, whenever the skater performs a move) your health drops. Jumping a 3Axel drains a skater's stamina. If they don't accomplish the landing that shows a lack of control, and thus it definitely needs to be worth significantly less points, but the skater still expended energy and displayed some amount of technique. That needs to be rewarded.

This is why adding a Quad to a program makes the ENTIRE program more difficult. When you start your program with a Quad you are automatically using, let's say, 10% of your energy. From that point on you are skating the program with 90% energy. In comparison, opening with a 3Lutz would only use up maybe 5% of your energy and you'd have 95% of your energy left for the remainder of the program. People who don't include the Quad are better able to backload the program and include more transitions because the program is easier. They have more energy to expend on doing such things.

That's also why a fall on a Triple Axel needs to be worth more than a Single Axel or doing no jump at all. A skater who at least attempts the rotations is expending that energy. If a skater just pops the jump into nothing they have more energy for the next element of the program.

As far as I can see this was what was good about 6.0 judging! Everyone seemed to understand doing the most difficult jumps made the whole program harder! The wins of Lipinski and Stojko and Hughes at worlds' and olympics! Now withe COP doing a hard jump means you get lots of points but it doesn't mean anything for the rest of the program and that is totally the reason why you have such things as the winner of mens in vancouver. I read like well people who do quads get inflated PCS well than that shows something about how messed up COP is that you can't get your due in tech scores.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
As far as I can see this was what was good about 6.0 judging! Everyone seemed to understand doing th COP doing a hard jump means you get lots of points but it doesn't mean anything for the rest of the program and that is totally the reason why you have such things as the winner of mens in vancouver. I read like well people who do quads get inflated PCS well than that shows something about how messed up COP is that you can't get your due in tech scores.
How the Jump is performed should also count in the points. The Quad, for example when it looks the same as it would at practice, doesn't appeal to me. Getting the necessary speed is important, but there are ways a skater can speed up his entry without the obvious crossovers because it has nothing to do with the choreography. By putting the Quad as the first element of a program, the skater is not performing it to his program. He's just showing his big trick which is my reasoning to have a scored segment of Tech only, and NO MUSIC except in the LP.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
  • Skaters' consistencies - If the only consistency is that most top skaters are headcases, or that most have sloppy unreliable techniques liable to be called by an international Tech Panel, there may be something systemic to look at and change.



Sigh...this is why so many of us still talk of Kwan. Do you know how long I waited for an artistic skater I loved who wasn't a headcase? How often do artistry and mental toughness go together? Thank goodness Michelle had a long career. After her, my favorite American skaters were again (to some degree at least) headcases: Sasha and Alissa. Thank goodness for Mao and YuNa.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
A better example from Pogue would have been a fall on a fully-rotated 3Axel rather than that awkward, underrotated one Mao did.

CoP does indeed judge what is shown on the ice, in theory, and doing a rotated 3Axel and falling on it is better than doing no jump at all. Jumping and pulling in for that amount of rotation requires skill and energy, regardless if the jump is landed or not. Points must be given for what skaters are able to do. Many skaters could never hope to rotate a 3Axel in their life; being able to accomplish that rotation shows a SKILL. The skater did something. That's more than nothing and thus it must be given some amount of points.

Everyone needs to realize that when a skater starts a program it's kind of like a fighting video game. You have 100% health but every time you are hit by an attack (or in this case, whenever the skater performs a move) your health drops. Jumping a 3Axel drains a skater's stamina. If they don't accomplish the landing that shows a lack of control, and thus it definitely needs to be worth significantly less points, but the skater still expended energy and displayed some amount of technique. That needs to be rewarded.

This is why adding a Quad to a program makes the ENTIRE program more difficult. When you start your program with a Quad you are automatically using, let's say, 10% of your energy. From that point on you are skating the program with 90% energy. In comparison, opening with a 3Lutz would only use up maybe 5% of your energy and you'd have 95% of your energy left for the remainder of the program. People who don't include the Quad are better able to backload the program and include more transitions because the program is easier. They have more energy to expend on doing such things.

That's also why a fall on a Triple Axel needs to be worth more than a Single Axel or doing no jump at all. A skater who at least attempts the rotations is expending that energy. If a skater just pops the jump into nothing they have more energy for the next element of the program.

That's a good argument and it makes sense to me.
But it made me think of other sports and athetes who at times expend more energy than their opponents but still lose.

A boxer who throws hard punch after hard punch does not get credit for punches that miss, no matter how hard the punches were. Often in fact he gets nailed with a lighter counter punch. Thinking of the "Rumble in the Jungle" it was not the heavy hitting George Foreman who won that fight but his lighter hitting opponet, Muhammed Ali.

Indeed Foreman punched himself into exhaustion in that fight.
Because so much of the energy he exerted was in an effort that failed he lost. Sports can and do have strategy that goes far beyond how much effort an athlete puts into his performance.

Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt hit more homeruns than any 3rd baseman in history. He also struck out more than any 3rd baseman in history. When he connected often he was rewarded with a homerun. When he missed the pitch, no matter how hard he swung it was a strike. Three of them and he was out and it never mattered that he was swinging for the fences. There was never any consideration that he swung the bat harder and exerted more energy than his light hitting teammate, Larry Bowa.

Can we apply the CoP to pole vaulting? Should a pole vaulter who clears the bar but then just barely catches it with part of his body on the way down be given partial credit? Surely he exerted alot of energy and no one can deny that he did something.

Problem is he failed to clear the bar cleanly and even if he ran the fastest and jumped the highest there was a problem with his technique.

I don't see why a sport that seems desperate to be more like a "real sport" has to reward failed efforts.

There are many good arguments that the skaters NEED to be encouraged to try the harder jumps.

Why is that? Is there something so unsporting about skaters that they lack the competitive edge of athletes in other sports?

Trying the hardest tricks is a gamble in many sports.
Whatever happened to "no guts, no glory."


Is there a correlation between a sport and how clearly defined it's rules are with it's popularity?

Why do we so often hear, " I don't get the new skating rules" :think:

Truth is we never got the old rules very well either. Button did a masterful job over the years convincing us that we did understand.

Does Scott need to find better ways to explain to his viewers why the skater with the biggest ovation was not the best that evening? Will the casual fans ever believe him?

Only if they care enough.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
...and Round One goes to Hernando. "Rumble in the Jungle" lol

:)

I have no probem giving round one to BOP since his post made good points that were about skating. I mostly agree with what he wrote.

My post was just a coffee-fueled early morning ramble.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Maybe Bradley will come to help mend some fences here. :) He started everything.

From Ryan Bradley's twitter yesterday:

I spent the day rebuilding my fence with my Pop today. Lots of work, but lots of fun :)

:laugh::laugh::laugh:










Note: I didn't read his earlier tweets. I thought he's built the fence. Then rebuilding it.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Sep 14, 2008
Country
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If we're going to compare to other sports, then diving and ski jump would be the proper comparison with regards to how to score jumps. Everything is worth a fixed base value given the difficulty of the maneuver and then the judges give an execution score. Often times the messier diver wins because his dives were much more difficult.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
If we're going to compare to other sports, then diving and ski jump would be the proper comparison with regards to how to score jumps. Everything is worth a fixed base value given the difficulty of the maneuver and then the judges give an execution score. Often times the messier diver wins because his dives were much more difficult.

Question, which maybe you or anyone else can answer.

I heard Button on occassions clearly and emphatically say good spins require more energy than jumps.

Do you agree? I think he may have said this earlier on in his broadcasting career, possibly before quads. But I heard him say it several times over the years.

I can tell you this for sure as a former b-ball player. It takes less energy to dunk a ball than it does to do a stop and go spin move round another player or to dribble fast down the full length of the court.

Different sports, I get that part.

By why was Button so insistent that good fast spins used more energy than jumps?
 
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blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
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Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Question, which maybe you or anyone else can answer.

I heard Button on occassions clearly and emphatically say good spins require more energy than jumps.

Do you agree? I think he may have said this earlier on in his broadcasting career, possibly before quads. But I heard him say it several times over the years.

I can tell you this for sure as a former b-ball player. It takes less energy to dunk a ball than it does to do a stop and go spin move round another player or to dribble fast down the full length of the court.

Different sports, I get that part.

By why was Button so insistent that good fast spins used more energy than jumps?

Dick is correct. Not only do spins last longer than jumps, but you maintain more tension in your body to complete the spin. Also, change-foot or change-position spins are especially hard because you're shifting your body weight.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Mathman;559739(c) Free skating is by nature comparative -- "I can skate better than you" -- rather than something that is to be measured against an objective standard. [/QUOTE said:
No way is the Technical (Sport) of the process comparative any more than a downhill skier loses by one second. It's not like you to make such a broad statement with your waiting for the Technical protocols to appear. however, I consider the PC (opinions) scores ok for your thinking, and very comparative: "I can do better arms than you" The Tech and the Performance should be separated.

The honest 6.0 judges all had those PC bullets in their heads, and the Tech was clear (skater Falls, skater off center spinning); and the Performance was opinion. But Figure Skating needs to tack on a Pagaent like judging - skater is so cute.
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
No way is the Technical (Sport) of the process comparative any more than a downhill skier loses by one second. It's not like you to make such a broad statement with your waiting for the Technical protocols to appear. however, I consider the PC (opinions) scores ok for your thinking, and very comparative: "I can do better arms than you" The Tech and the Performance should be separated.

The honest 6.0 judges all had those PC bullets in their heads, and the Tech was clear (skater Falls, skater off center spinning); and the Performance was opinion. But Figure Skating needs to tack on a Pagaent like judging - skater is so cute.

But why oh why Joe do you want to go back to 1996-1999 ice dance judging?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Unfortunately, one of them did not skate well when it counted and totally lost a spin box at Nationals. What did you want the judges to do, give her a huge (underserved) PCS score, or score what was on the ice that night? I believe the judges did the right thing (scored what was on the ice that night), even though I wished it had been reversed.
mskater93 - I've made it clear time and again, I think there should be no partial credit for elements that are not completed. I am fully aware that they are permissible. It's not the end of the world for the competitor; there is next year, unless time is running out. :cry:
 
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