CoP scoring of jumps from 2010 Olympics | Page 3 | Golden Skate

CoP scoring of jumps from 2010 Olympics

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
What always bothers me about the criticism of Evan in this competition is that it tends to fault him personally, as if he did something bad by winning; as if he handed in something substandard. He did his best and pushed himself to the limit.

Except not. Pushing himself to the limit would have meant going for the Quad and trying to replicate something on the level of his 2007 Nationals performance. Evan did not do his best at all. He skated a safe and robotic program and hoped for Plushenko to make enough mistakes in order to win. It actually doesn't bother me that Evan didn't do the Quad; what's bothersome is his total lack of respect for the artistic side of the sport. He didn't even attempt to put anything personal into the program or to have any kind of viewpoint or creativity or give an actual PERFORMANCE.

The judges should be blamed for part of that, though. He never should have been receiving those kind of PCS marks. Because of poor judging, a circumstance arose where he WAS able to focus on just skating a clean, safe by-the-numbers program and receive big marks for it. His ridiculous "World Champion" bonus pulled extra +GOE and PCS that were not deserved.

Like Buttle/Joubert, Plushenko/Lysacek was a close call.

A close call for who should have won the Bronze medal, I suppose. :cool:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ I disagree with that criticism. If a person lacks creativity and artistic flair you can't blame him for not giving a creative and artistic performance. (Did you see Evan on Dancing with he Stars?) Like Katarina Witt in 1988, Evan did what he could. On the tech side, it would have been nice if Evan had a reliable quad. But he didn't. He tried one at U.S. Nationals just to be sure.

He gave it his best shot. He skated with intensity. He tried not to fall down, and he didn't. He skated to the music up to his capacity to do so. He worked on his stamina so that he could back-load his jumps. The audience, by and large, liked his effort. I thought he brought everything he had to the table. It was up to the others guys to beat him. They didn't.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I disagree with that criticism. If a person lacks creativity and artistic flair you can't blame him for not giving a creative and artistic performance.

That's like saying "if an accountant lacks skill with numbers, you can't blame them for not doing your taxes correctly."

Those qualities are supposed to be JUDGED in figure skating. Evan was not properly judged for his program. The choreography and interpretation was nowhere near that of a few other competitors and yet his scores did not reflect that. If he had skated with tons of passion and attack that would be a different story, but he didn't even do that. Which is why I disagree with this part as well:

Like Katarina Witt in 1988, Evan did what he could. He gave it his best shot. He skated with intensity. He tried not to fall down, and he didn't. He skated to the music up to his capacity to do so.

What intensity? Where was it? I did not see it. I saw very cautious skating. I do not at all believe he skated to the music up to his artistic capacity. Look at the emotion he put into his 2006 Olympic LP. That quality was sorely lacking from his 2010 Olympic LP.

I love you MM, but this comparison you're making to Katarina Witt is absurd. Katarina's program was a beguiling performance piece with a coquettish quality that was unmatched in figure skating history up to that point in time.

It was up to the others guys to beat him. They didn't.

Oh, but they did. The judges just didn't score it as such. Do you honestly believe Evan would have pulled those scores if he didn't have his track record? He would have been scored exactly as Johnny Weir was if politics weren't on his side.

BTW, I believe Katarina Witt deserved to win SILVER at both of her Olympics. :thumbsup:
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I still think one can win a championship if his partial credits are valid over a clean skated rival whose content was excellent. that's stretching the concept of you score on what is seen. It literally makes errors ok in a championship. Partial Credit did not exist legally in the 6.0 system. Tech was judged on completing the elements Either one could display his Jumps in a defined manner or suffer the consequences. That's sport.

It also makes a folly of perceived artistry. One could skate sloppily and not be judged faulty in the Performance. You figure.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
First, Lysacek has given unfair PCS advantage of SP going into LP, which has resulted in having a quadless gold medalist. Second, after 2008 Worlds, CoP still hadn't given quad jumps enough value to encourage the risk taking. Some skaters have taken advantage of such a point-accumulating system. Avoided this prestigious element and used other elements to make up for the loss from avoiding it.

Risk taking is one of the characters of any sports. Without risk taking, it won't be a sport. Some people mixed together Jeffrey Buttle's advantage-taking in 2006 Olympics with Lysacek's advantage-taking in 2010 Olympics. IMO, they were quite different advantage-taking. Buttle took the risk, made 4 revolutions in the air then fell. He was smart and brave. That was an applausable risk-taking athlete's behaviour. Lysacek avoided risk, skipped quad jump which he wasn't good at any more, instead made up the lost points from other elements he was good at or still able to do. He and Frank Carroll both were smart. But I couldn't say that he was brave. Such an Olympic gold medalist was, is, and will be remembered, but in a different way. Poor Evan!

1. I disagree. If you believe Lysacek was given an unfair PCS advantage, that's fine. I think Plushenko was given an unfair PCS advantage. And around and around we go.

2. I do agree that the sport should encourage risk taking. But why is "risk taking" only accorded to the quad? Level four footwork, which is so difficult that only three or four men can do it consistently (Chan, Takahashi, Fernandez) is worth less than a triple toe, for example. Hell, they even took out one footwork sequence (in the short) and made the second one in the LP an un-leveled one, so that actual content is not judged as part of technical difficulty. Remember Chan's performance at Nationals? His final jump (a 2A) was call more difficult than his final footwork sequence. Which, to you, is more representative of risk?

3. And beyond that, how do we define risk? For example, Chan's clearly more comfortable on the quad than he's on the 3A. For him, it would be a bigger risk to include two 3As, not two quads.

3. Buttle won bronze. Lysacek won gold. People questioned a system that would allow a skater to garner a significant amount of points for the fallen quad. And we're seeing people ask those same questions today.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
That's like saying "if an accountant lacks skill with numbers, you can't blame them for not doing your taxes correctly."

Well, you could say that he is a an incompetent boobie. But still he might have tried his best. I think Lysacek tried his best.

Katarina's program was a beguiling performance piece with a coquettish quality that was unmatched in figure skating history up to that point in time.

:rock: That sentence is so effectively written that I have no choice but to succumb. (To me, though, it seemed like she used coquetry to mask other deficiencies. She "did what she could" and left it up to the other skaters to beat her if they were able.)
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
And I think Michelle should have won in 1998. Alas, we don't get do-overs. But we do get to enjoy the skaters we love, whether the judges marked them to our satisfaction or not. Think of it as being a Chicago Cubs fan. (I think it's the Cubs who still haven't won a World Series. Didn't the White Sox win a few years ago? If they're not figure skaters, I don't tend to recall these things.) I know it's not an exact parallel because baseball isn't a judged sport. But sometimes you love people who don't show up in the record books the way you'd like. You still love them. Example: I will watch Lyra Angelica with delight until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil, and I might never watch Tara's program again...what was it called?--even though it won the gold and supposedly showed "unbridled joy." I'm glad there are people who love her work; every skater deserves devotees. But I'm with Lyra Angelica.

So someone else won the 2010 Men's Gold instead of Plushenko or Takahashi. Did Lysacek really have the best skate of the week? We have argued this for a year. There's one thing I know: we will never get to see the 2010 Men's Competition re-skated. We can keep debating, because it's part of what fans do, and it's extremely enjoyable and enlightening, but until one of you can find the crank in the globe that we turn in reverse, we won't undo what happened that night. Frankly, if I find the crank, I'll go back to some other event, such as the beginning of World War I, or Sept. 10, 2001. I won't waste it on getting Plushenko those two extra points, and I'm pretty sure none of the rest of you would either.
 
Last edited:

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
He's incredibly articulate and self-possessed in front of a microphone--I'll never forget that splendid interview he gave to Bob Costas the day or so after his win, when Costas tried to push him into responding to Plushenko's gripes.

Surely you don't think that the questions Bob Costas asked to Lysacek were the questions suddenly popped up on air and never ever have been rehearsed before, do you? Do you think that Lysacek didn't have any pr persons from USFSA, USOC, or NBC to coach him for the proper answers?

I think those answers were calculated, prepared, rehearsed, of course perfect answers under those kinds of circumstances. But they didn't mean much of anything.

Does anyone seriously think that Patrick Chan or Daisuke Takahashi, or Oda whose ancestor was a Samurai, will "hold back" and play it safe from now on?

Seeing what Takahashi did at 2010 Olympics, everyone knows that he won't hold back. But if I say Chan and Oda won't, and make a long list of reasons. Will you believe that? It'll be everyone's guess. Since last season, the harder jumps have given higher values, no one will ever know the answer to your this question.

Pushing himself to the limit would have meant going for the Quad and trying to replicate something on the level of his 2007 Nationals performance. Evan did not do his best at all. He skated a safe and robotic program and hoped for Plushenko to make enough mistakes in order to win.

True.

2. I do agree that the sport should encourage risk taking. But why is "risk taking" only accorded to the quad? Level four footwork, which is so difficult that only three or four men can do it consistently (Chan, Takahashi, Fernandez) is worth less than a triple toe, for example. Hell, they even took out one footwork sequence (in the short) and made the second one in the LP an un-leveled one, so that actual content is not judged as part of technical difficulty. Remember Chan's performance at Nationals? His final jump (a 2A) was call more difficult than his final footwork sequence. Which, to you, is more representative of risk?

3. And beyond that, how do we define risk? For example, Chan's clearly more comfortable on the quad than he's on the 3A. For him, it would be a bigger risk to include two 3As, not two quads.

Is level 4 footwork representing high athleticism? No. It's representing high skating skills. That's why it doesn't belong to risk-taking of a sport.

The risk-taking I refered to was an absolute concept of "pushing to the human limit". Not the risk that someone takes to perform in order to get the safest result. These are totally two different things.
 
Last edited:

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
If I find the crank, I'll never stop!

But if we can't endlessly rehash arguments that won't change the outcome (Kirk vs Spock! Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings, sweet vs sour!) on the internets, what else as we supposed to do :D!!!
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Is level 4 footwork representing high athletism? No. It's representing high skating skills. That's why it doesn't belong to risk-taking of a sport.

The risk-taking I refered to was an absolute concept of "pushing to the human limit". Not the risk that someone takes to perform in order to get the safest result. These are totally two different things.

Is this generally agreed upon? That high skating skills in and of themselves don't represent high athleticism?

ETA: You didn't answer my question, about the quad vs the 3A, and what represents real risk (use Lambiel as an example, if you'd rather).
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
If I find the crank, I'll never stop!

But if we can't endlessly rehash arguments that won't change the outcome (Kirk vs Spock! Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings, sweet vs sour!) on the internets, what else as we supposed to do :D!!!

Definitely, Pogue!

(And I still think Cary Grant should have won the Oscar for None But the Lonely Heart...and instead I think they gave it to Bing Crosby for portraying a singing priest in Going My Way. Wuzrobbed!)
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Evan Lysacek: Boy Next Door or Sinister Villain... well he does like to slick his hair back and wear black... *yawn* so glad he's out of this business, he deserves better. :sheesh:
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Is this generally agreed upon? That high skating skills in and of themselves don't represent high athleticism?

I don't know if this is generally agreed upon. In my mind, I think they are in two different categories. Do you think drawing belongs to athleticism? It doesn't involve the precise move of feet but it does to the hands.

ETA: You didn't answer my question, about the quad vs the 3A, and what represents real risk (use Lambiel as an example, if you'd rather).

It doesn't matter whether we talk about Chan or Lambiel. 3A was conquered long before quad jumps. That means that quad jump is the next higher level of the human limit. It doesn't matter whether some skaters could manage quad better than 3A or 2A. Quad is still the limit for all skaters.
 
Last edited:

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Bluebonnet, I think skating requires athleticism - speed skating, figure skating, roller skating, etc. Therefore skating skills would require athleticism. I'm genuinely floored you think drawing is an appropriate analogy. I definitely disagree with your general attitude though.

Definitely, Pogue!

(And I still think Cary Grant should have won the Oscar for None But the Lonely Heart...and instead I think they gave it to Bing Crosby for portraying a singing priest in Going My Way. Wuzrobbed!)

Fred MacMurray in Double Indemnity all the way.

Grant should've won for The Awful Truth.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Bluebonnet, I think skating requires athleticism - speed skating, figure skating, roller skating, etc. Therefore skating skills would require athleticism. I'm genuinely floored you think drawing is an appropriate analogy. I definitely disagree with your general attitude though.

:)I know hands movement and feet movement are different. Feet movement cannot be separated from whole body movement. I don't want you to think that I'm sophisticating. The truth is that I actually find a lot of your questions are hard to answer and I've never thought about.

However, I still don't think level 4 footwork could be put on the level of quad jumps in order to measure a skater's athleticism, nor in the same concept of risk-taking.
 
Last edited:

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
for a skater like Bradley who can hit quads (most days) in his sleep, but would trip all over level four footwork I think the footwork would be a bigger risk.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
for a skater like Bradley who can hit quads (most days) in his sleep, but would trip all over level four footwork I think the footwork would be a bigger risk.

I'd say Bradley is more sporty than a good skater. He is a brave athlete.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Definition of an Athlete: a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill.

Level 4 footwork seems to fit squarely under physical agility.

Definition of Athletic:
1. physically active and strong; good at athletics or sports: an athletic child.
2. of, like, or befitting an athlete.
3. of or pertaining to athletes; involving the use of physical skills or capabilities, as strength, agility, or stamina: athletic sports; athletic training.
4. for athletics: an athletic field.

I see nothing about the meaning of "athletic" that would exclude Level 4 footwork.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
^ I disagree with that criticism. If a person lacks creativity and artistic flair you can't blame him for not giving a creative and artistic performance. (Did you see Evan on Dancing with he Stars?)
Yes but in DwS he didnt skate, did he? I havent seen any of Dance with Stars, so all I want to comment is that my first encounter with Lysacek live was in GS 2010 and I had no intention not to like his skate. The ambiance was really cheerful and Vancouver was so past by then. But my impression as objective as it can be is that he skates well executed or not programs even in shows with the minimum of his own personal touch in them. The opening act of Golden SKates when rythm was important was not good and if you watch the rest skaters he loses in comparison and his MJ program , I dont know..you watch and tell me :) He also skated his Oly program, I really think GS was a good opportunity not to skate the program like he was going to be marked for it, level 4 spins and footwork were not required. I m not all audience, so I think it is indicative of the reception he got, and I dont think it has to do with European audience that didnt sync with him cause I saw Weir and Sasha this weekend and they rocked they arena. I think you either have it or not and in shows it is more obvious. My post has nothing to do with the result in Olympics, it sounds very old news now :cool:
 
Top