Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 115

Thread: CoP scoring of jumps from 2010 Olympics

  1. #16
    Custom Title Kitt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    456
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I would do it the other way around. Keep the short program as is and let the skaters try to work in the elements as part of the choreography if they are able.

    Then for the long program -- no music, just a time limit. Do as many jumps and spins as you can in four-and-a-half minutes.
    A sure way for figure skating to lose even more fans........

  2. #17
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,008
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    My issue with gmyers assertion is the assumption that the result (a quadless skater winning the Olympics) is because COP devalued the quad in general. It didn't.
    I dare to ask, why is that? Yes, Plushenko has had an unsteady LP. What about SP? Was that fair to have a none-quad skater scored around 90, so close to a near perfect quad skater?
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-13-2011 at 11:00 AM.

  3. #18
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,348
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    The typical mischievous Mathman.
    ...but only in part. To me, many short programs have excellent performance value. Whereas a lot of long programs seem more like marathons of one element after another.

  4. #19
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    Bluebonnet, the short answer: what score would you have given Plushenko for that skate without a quad? Long answer coming later.

  5. #20
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    9,495
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I would do it the other way around. Keep the short program as is and let the skaters try to work in the elements as part of the choreography if they are able.

    Then for the long program -- no music, just a time limit. Do as many jumps and spins as you can in four-and-a-half minutes.
    Gaak! Even as a joke, this suggestion gives me hives. It would be like watching one-person short-track speed skating.

  6. #21
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,348
    ^ No, but give it a chance. If a person can do a quad in ten seconds, then he can do 27 quads in four and a half minutes.

    Would there be any question as to who's the king?

  7. #22
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    My problem with the SP is the perceived artistry that will be lost. There is a longer program for skater to demonstrate their artistry and it should be more meaningful. The LP however, is all about opinions, and messing up is ok for partial credit, but it has all the artistry that a fan needs for his addiction. No need to see a preliminary.

    On the sporting side, the three jumps, the spins and footwork, are put under pressure to be executed by definition but the chance of falling behind is diminished with the partial credit, and 'artistry' will probably win over anyway. So, I'll do my Flutz and with the credit that comes with it, plus my great LP performance will get me gold.
    Such a Sport! Only in Figure Skating.

  8. #23
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,722
    Plushenko is such a good jumper if he did a 3flip/3toe and the lutz out of steps or a 3lutz/3toe 3flip out of steps I am sure the GOE would have been great and he could could have got near 90 as well. It was not a real competition or anything but at the Japan Open in 2010 Plushenko did a 3lz/3toe and it was worth 3Lz+3T BV 10.10 GOE + 1.40 equaling 11.50. With the bonus at russian nationals pushing plushenko to 100 and his euros score being 91 and like everyone else got olympic inflation 93 or 94 for plushenko seemsd like it would have been more proper - maybe even going to a 95!

  9. #24
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I dare to ask, why is that? Yes, Plushenko has had an unsteady LP. What about SP? Was that fair to have a none-quad skater scored around 90, so close to a near perfect quad skater?
    Was it fair? Bluebonnet, let’s take a glance at some protocols to start things off

    Olympics, 2010, Men's SP
    Olympics, 2006, Men’s SP

    1. In 2010, the quad is worth 0.8 more.
    2. In 2010, Plushenko has three level four spins. In 2006, he has one. The difference in base value is 1.6, to 2010
    3. In 2010, Plushenko had two level three step sequences. In 2006, he had one level three, one level four. However, the base value is such that 2010 level three is worth more, so credit 0.1 to 2010 as the difference.
    4. The triple axel is worth 0.7 more.

    So, what do those facts mean? In 2006, Plushenko had a 4.4 base value advantage. That advantage comes largely from doing the quad (the 4-3 + 3Lz vs a lutz/flip combo and solo flip/lutz gives him a 4.5 point advantage, so he only lost 0.1 of that advantage).

    In 2010, Plushenko has a 4.1 base value advantage (3.7 over Takahashi, who didn’t have the GOEs Lysacek got). Those same jumps give him a 4.3 advantage, so he squandered only 0.2 of the advantage given to him.

    In 2010, Plushenko scored 7.00 points in GOE. In 2006, he scored 8.8

    In 2010, the next competitors matched Plushenko on spins. In 2006, second placed Wier did a level one spin. Third placed Lambiel did not match Plushenko on base value either.

    In 2010, Plushenko scored 40.97 for PCS. In 2006, he scored 39.75. That difference was due to transitions scores (1.02 difference in years), and let’s be honest, he was overscored for those in Turin, big time.

    Another way of putting it. Without the quad, in 2006, Plushenko still would have led, and he would’ve been ahead of quad skaters (Joubert, for example). The quality of his other elements and his command of the ice would’ve assured that. In 2010, his skill had detiorated somewhat. The rest of the field was better in the SP (remember, of the eventual top five, Buttle and Lysacek had placed 6th and 10th in the SP). His dominance had to do with his excellence as a skater, not just the quad.

    Another example to disprove gmyer’s assertion.

    The top five men at Worlds 2007 all did quads. Joubert, Takashi, Lambiel, Verner, Lysacek. With the next three seasons, the quad was increased in value. No changes to UR calls were made. Edge calls were shifted but that didn’t affect the quad. Levels three and four footwork WERE worth more, but that impact was largely neglible because level four footwork is rare and most of the champions didn’t do it (except Lysacek at Olympics, of course, and some might argue that made the difference, but the difference in quad value is greater than the difference in level three/four footwork). Backloading already existed, and as pointed out before, skaters like Joubert backloaded more than someone like Buttle or Chan. IJS/COP made NO CHANGES that would've helped the non-quad skaters significantly over the quad skaters.

    No, the greatest issue affecting the quads? The injury (Takahashi, Lambiel), inconsistency (Abbott, Verner, Joubert), and absence (Voronov, Ponsero, Preaubert) of quad skaters. Remember 2008 worlds? Oda wasn't there (and he had landed quads), Verner bombed, Lambiel was injured, Takahashi inconsistent ANd had that non-counting combo, Joubert fell in the SP and thought a 2A-1t combo was technically difficult. 2009? No Takahashi or Lambiel. Joubert fell on a 2A. Verner doubled a few jumps, etc.

    So now we've swung too far in the other direction. Falls on a quad now contribute the same to a program as a textbook triple lutz (6.0 points even after the GOE loss and fall deduction).

  10. #25
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I would do it the other way around. Keep the short program as is and let the skaters try to work in the elements as part of the choreography if they are able.

    Then for the long program -- no music, just a time limit. Do as many jumps and spins as you can in four-and-a-half minutes.
    I know that is your humor biting what you believe in. No problem, we all do it sarcastically.

    However, would you negate all the Medals earned during the school figures eras because you did not get emotionally involved?

    I contend that the Long Program may show everything one needs for an emotional lift. My only correction would be the LP should change into the Free Skate as it used to be; and the SP be converted into a Test of Element Skills as the original figure skating rules applied.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 04-14-2011 at 08:54 AM.

  11. #26
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,348
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I contend that the Long Program may show everything one needs for an emotional lift. My only correction would be the LP should change into the Free Skate as it used to be; and the SP be converted into a Test of Element Skills as the original figure skating rules applied.
    My suggestion is that it would be better the other way around. I think the short program should be the one that features connection to the music, emotional lift, performance qualities and "artistry." The long program is better suited to a display of technical elements.

    I know this is not "the way it used to be," but change is not always a bad thing.

  12. #27
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    6,889
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I know that is your humor biting what you believe in. No problem, we all do it sarcastically.

    However, would you negate all the Medals earned during the school figures eras because you did not get emotionally involved?

    I contend that the Long Program may show everything one needs for an emotional lift. My only correction would be the LP should change into the Free Skate as it used to be; and the SP be converted into a Test of Element Skills as the original figure skating rules applied.
    Ballroom Dancing in an effort to become an Olympic sport has changed it's name to "DanceSport."

    Isn't it time for a new name for skating.

    Should we call it "PointSkating" or "LevelSkating" or maybe copy Ballroom and call it "SkateSport."

    If skating officially changed it's name to "SkateSport" who would dare question whether it is a real sport or not?
    Besides a few hockey players

    Post the new name "SkateSport" on the internet and it will be a acknowledged the same as the protocols as being infallible.
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-14-2011 at 09:50 AM.

  13. #28
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    UK - Manchester
    Posts
    4,913
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    In 2010, Plushenko has a 4.1 base value advantage (3.7 over Takahashi, who didn’t have the GOEs Lysacek got).
    Just to be nit-picky, but Takahashi got slightly greater GOEs than Lysacek (Dai got 8.5 points out of GOE to Evan's 8.3), and with a Level 4 step sequence actually beat Lysacek in the technical score. Again I'm reminded why i was left scratching my head that Lysacek could possibly beat Dai in the SP. He won it on PCS, which doesn't even begin to make sense to me as I think Dai is the stronger skater PCS-wise.

  14. #29
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,348
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    However, would you negate all the Medals earned during the school figures eras because you did not get emotionally involved?
    I think you are putting words in my mouth. I did not say anything about emotional involvement. I have not been emotionally involved in a competitive skating performance since 2004 (Michelle Kwan, U.S. Nationals, Tosca).

    However, I do think that the short program format has the potential to provide a setting for a nice little artistic gem, and there have been quite a few short programs that I have enjoyed, even in the current era.

    Not so the long program. It seems more like a marathon through an obstacle course.

  15. #30
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Just to be nit-picky, but Takahashi got slightly greater GOEs than Lysacek (Dai got 8.5 points out of GOE to Evan's 8.3), and with a Level 4 step sequence actually beat Lysacek in the technical score. Again I'm reminded why i was left scratching my head that Lysacek could possibly beat Dai in the SP. He won it on PCS, which doesn't even begin to make sense to me as I think Dai is the stronger skater PCS-wise.
    Oh. Well that's stupid. That Dai lost to Lysacek on PCS. The only component that makes sense for me is transitions, and maybe not even that.

    Don't worry about the nit-picky. It's COP. We have to be.

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •