CoP scoring of jumps from 2010 Olympics | Page 2 | Golden Skate

CoP scoring of jumps from 2010 Olympics

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ No, but give it a chance. If a person can do a quad in ten seconds, then he can do 27 quads in four and a half minutes.

Would there be any question as to who's the king?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
My problem with the SP is the perceived artistry that will be lost. There is a longer program for skater to demonstrate their artistry and it should be more meaningful. The LP however, is all about opinions, and messing up is ok for partial credit, but it has all the artistry that a fan needs for his addiction. No need to see a preliminary.

On the sporting side, the three jumps, the spins and footwork, are put under pressure to be executed by definition but the chance of falling behind is diminished with the partial credit, and 'artistry' will probably win over anyway. So, I'll do my Flutz and with the credit that comes with it, plus my great LP performance will get me gold.
Such a Sport! Only in Figure Skating.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Plushenko is such a good jumper if he did a 3flip/3toe and the lutz out of steps or a 3lutz/3toe 3flip out of steps I am sure the GOE would have been great and he could could have got near 90 as well. It was not a real competition or anything but at the Japan Open in 2010 Plushenko did a 3lz/3toe and it was worth 3Lz+3T BV 10.10 GOE + 1.40 equaling 11.50. With the bonus at russian nationals pushing plushenko to 100 and his euros score being 91 and like everyone else got olympic inflation 93 or 94 for plushenko seemsd like it would have been more proper - maybe even going to a 95!
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I dare to ask, why is that? Yes, Plushenko has had an unsteady LP. What about SP? Was that fair to have a none-quad skater scored around 90, so close to a near perfect quad skater?

Was it fair? Bluebonnet, let’s take a glance at some protocols to start things off

Olympics, 2010, Men's SP
Olympics, 2006, Men’s SP

1. In 2010, the quad is worth 0.8 more.
2. In 2010, Plushenko has three level four spins. In 2006, he has one. The difference in base value is 1.6, to 2010
3. In 2010, Plushenko had two level three step sequences. In 2006, he had one level three, one level four. However, the base value is such that 2010 level three is worth more, so credit 0.1 to 2010 as the difference.
4. The triple axel is worth 0.7 more.

So, what do those facts mean? In 2006, Plushenko had a 4.4 base value advantage. That advantage comes largely from doing the quad (the 4-3 + 3Lz vs a lutz/flip combo and solo flip/lutz gives him a 4.5 point advantage, so he only lost 0.1 of that advantage).

In 2010, Plushenko has a 4.1 base value advantage (3.7 over Takahashi, who didn’t have the GOEs Lysacek got). Those same jumps give him a 4.3 advantage, so he squandered only 0.2 of the advantage given to him.

In 2010, Plushenko scored 7.00 points in GOE. In 2006, he scored 8.8

In 2010, the next competitors matched Plushenko on spins. In 2006, second placed Wier did a level one spin. Third placed Lambiel did not match Plushenko on base value either.

In 2010, Plushenko scored 40.97 for PCS. In 2006, he scored 39.75. That difference was due to transitions scores (1.02 difference in years), and let’s be honest, he was overscored for those in Turin, big time.

Another way of putting it. Without the quad, in 2006, Plushenko still would have led, and he would’ve been ahead of quad skaters (Joubert, for example). The quality of his other elements and his command of the ice would’ve assured that. In 2010, his skill had detiorated somewhat. The rest of the field was better in the SP (remember, of the eventual top five, Buttle and Lysacek had placed 6th and 10th in the SP). His dominance had to do with his excellence as a skater, not just the quad.

Another example to disprove gmyer’s assertion.

The top five men at Worlds 2007 all did quads. Joubert, Takashi, Lambiel, Verner, Lysacek. With the next three seasons, the quad was increased in value. No changes to UR calls were made. Edge calls were shifted but that didn’t affect the quad. Levels three and four footwork WERE worth more, but that impact was largely neglible because level four footwork is rare and most of the champions didn’t do it (except Lysacek at Olympics, of course, and some might argue that made the difference, but the difference in quad value is greater than the difference in level three/four footwork). Backloading already existed, and as pointed out before, skaters like Joubert backloaded more than someone like Buttle or Chan. IJS/COP made NO CHANGES that would've helped the non-quad skaters significantly over the quad skaters.

No, the greatest issue affecting the quads? The injury (Takahashi, Lambiel), inconsistency (Abbott, Verner, Joubert), and absence (Voronov, Ponsero, Preaubert) of quad skaters. Remember 2008 worlds? Oda wasn't there (and he had landed quads), Verner bombed, Lambiel was injured, Takahashi inconsistent ANd had that non-counting combo, Joubert fell in the SP and thought a 2A-1t combo was technically difficult. 2009? No Takahashi or Lambiel. Joubert fell on a 2A. Verner doubled a few jumps, etc.

So now we've swung too far in the other direction. Falls on a quad now contribute the same to a program as a textbook triple lutz (6.0 points even after the GOE loss and fall deduction).
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I would do it the other way around. Keep the short program as is and let the skaters try to work in the elements as part of the choreography if they are able.

Then for the long program -- no music, just a time limit. Do as many jumps and spins as you can in four-and-a-half minutes. :yes:
I know that is your humor biting what you believe in. No problem, we all do it sarcastically.

However, would you negate all the Medals earned during the school figures eras because you did not get emotionally involved?

I contend that the Long Program may show everything one needs for an emotional lift. My only correction would be the LP should change into the Free Skate as it used to be; and the SP be converted into a Test of Element Skills as the original figure skating rules applied.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I contend that the Long Program may show everything one needs for an emotional lift. My only correction would be the LP should change into the Free Skate as it used to be; and the SP be converted into a Test of Element Skills as the original figure skating rules applied.

My suggestion is that it would be better the other way around. I think the short program should be the one that features connection to the music, emotional lift, performance qualities and "artistry." The long program is better suited to a display of technical elements.

I know this is not "the way it used to be," but change is not always a bad thing.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I know that is your humor biting what you believe in. No problem, we all do it sarcastically.

However, would you negate all the Medals earned during the school figures eras because you did not get emotionally involved?

I contend that the Long Program may show everything one needs for an emotional lift. My only correction would be the LP should change into the Free Skate as it used to be; and the SP be converted into a Test of Element Skills as the original figure skating rules applied.

Ballroom Dancing in an effort to become an Olympic sport has changed it's name to "DanceSport."

Isn't it time for a new name for skating.

Should we call it "PointSkating" or "LevelSkating" or maybe copy Ballroom and call it "SkateSport."

If skating officially changed it's name to "SkateSport" who would dare question whether it is a real sport or not? :cool:
Besides a few hockey players :biggrin:

Post the new name "SkateSport" on the internet and it will be a acknowledged the same as the protocols as being infallible. ;)
 
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antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
In 2010, Plushenko has a 4.1 base value advantage (3.7 over Takahashi, who didn’t have the GOEs Lysacek got).

Just to be nit-picky, but Takahashi got slightly greater GOEs than Lysacek (Dai got 8.5 points out of GOE to Evan's 8.3), and with a Level 4 step sequence actually beat Lysacek in the technical score. Again I'm reminded why i was left scratching my head that Lysacek could possibly beat Dai in the SP. He won it on PCS, which doesn't even begin to make sense to me as I think Dai is the stronger skater PCS-wise.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
However, would you negate all the Medals earned during the school figures eras because you did not get emotionally involved?

I think you are putting words in my mouth. I did not say anything about emotional involvement. I have not been emotionally involved in a competitive skating performance since 2004 (Michelle Kwan, U.S. Nationals, Tosca).

However, I do think that the short program format has the potential to provide a setting for a nice little artistic gem, and there have been quite a few short programs that I have enjoyed, even in the current era.

Not so the long program. It seems more like a marathon through an obstacle course.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Just to be nit-picky, but Takahashi got slightly greater GOEs than Lysacek (Dai got 8.5 points out of GOE to Evan's 8.3), and with a Level 4 step sequence actually beat Lysacek in the technical score. Again I'm reminded why i was left scratching my head that Lysacek could possibly beat Dai in the SP. He won it on PCS, which doesn't even begin to make sense to me as I think Dai is the stronger skater PCS-wise.

Oh. Well that's stupid. That Dai lost to Lysacek on PCS. The only component that makes sense for me is transitions, and maybe not even that.

Don't worry about the nit-picky. It's COP. We have to be.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
If he only did a 3-3, he probably would've dropped out of the top five the rest of his performance was behind par. The quad-PCS bonus/reputation helped him a great deal at Vancouver.
by the protocols you posted, it doesnt look like Evgeni had an average skate besides the quad, level 4 in spins, level 3 in footwork and nice axel and lutz :) I believe PCS inflation happened to more skaters rather than Plushy alone, not telling names :D ;)
 

mot

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
whole post

Thanks for your analysis. I think you wrote in the other thread that COP made you a fan of figure skating (again) and I must admit I feel the same. I was watching figure skating pre-COP, but back then, I was just watching it casually in a sense. I have no background in skating myself, so I felt somehow excluded, not knowing how to evaluate skaters' skills and performances, except who landed jumps and who didn't. All I could say back then was whether I liked a particular performance or not, or who looked prettier / more exciting on ice - stating my 'preferences' only. COP and availability of protocols allow me to decipher the scores, encourage me to look at performances and programmes (components and their layout) more precisely and in detail and examine the strategies, give more clues about techniques (URs, wrong edge take off, change edges, etc), and above all give me another perspective and depth and breath of appreciation. I am now much more involved and spent more time watching, re-watching, collecting data, comparing performances, and so on. I have also discovered a joy of watching junior skaters too.

I still have personal preferences and my favourite ones do not always win, but now I have means to understand why that is at least. And I am happier for that.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
by the protocols you posted, it doesnt look like Evgeni had an average skate besides the quad, level 4 in spins, level 3 in footwork and nice axel and lutz :) I believe PCS inflation happened to more skaters rather than Plushy alone, not telling names :D ;)

True. My point was more about how in Turin, the ten point lead had just as much to do with the rest of the field's disappointing performances as it does his own decline. The quad helped in Turin, but if you look at the scores, you see him doing very well without it anyway.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
what score would you have given Plushenko for that skate without a quad?

That's a good question! Without a quad, probably he wouldn't get much lower than he had already had with a quad since the quad value was still not high enough to make this element standing out.

the entire post#24

Thank you so much for taking a lot of time to gather those valuable info and making detailed analysis! It has answered some of my concerns and made something clearer for me.

However, I feel that that didn't actually address these questions:

That is what doing a quad triple meant? Just goes to show doing a 4/3 meant nothing under COP at the 2010 Olympics.

Was that fair to have a none-quad skater scored around 90, so close to a near perfect quad skater?

First, Lysacek has given unfair PCS advantage of SP going into LP, which has resulted in having a quadless gold medalist. Second, after 2008 Worlds, CoP still hadn't given quad jumps enough value to encourage the risk taking. Some skaters have taken advantage of such a point-accumulating system. Avoided this prestigious element and used other elements to make up for the loss from avoiding it.

Risk taking is one of the characters of any sports. Without risk taking, it won't be a sport. Some people mixed together Jeffrey Buttle's advantage-taking in 2006 Olympics with Lysacek's advantage-taking in 2010 Olympics. IMO, they were quite different advantage-taking. Buttle took the risk, made 4 revolutions in the air then fell. He was smart and brave. That was an applausable risk-taking athlete's behaviour. Lysacek avoided risk, skipped quad jump which he wasn't good at any more, instead made up the lost points from other elements he was good at or still able to do. He and Frank Carroll both were smart. But I couldn't say that he was brave. Such an Olympic gold medalist was, is, and will be remembered, but in a different way. Poor Evan!
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
. He and Frank Carroll both were smart. But I couldn't say that he was brave. Such an Olympic gold medalist was, is, and will be remembered, but in a different way. Poor Evan!

I dunno, Evan and all the other skaters trained for years in pursuit of their Olympic dreams.

I think every skater that goes out on the ice alone for four minutes knowing so many are watching and with so much on the line is brave enough for me.

Sometimes champions are measured by their competitors. The 2010 Men's field in Vancouver was considered the deepest in Olympic history.
Just winning a medal in Vancouver was quite a feat. To win Gold was pretty special. What the Silver medalist accomplished might feel bittersweet to his fans but was still very special and even remarkable.

Evan will be remembered for holding his nerve and beating not just a deep field but also a legendary skater named Plushenko.

"Poor Evan" :think:

I think Evan is pretty fortunate.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Like Buttle/Joubert, Plushenko/Lysacek was a close call.

It blew away the theory that a skater needed a Quad, among other things; and that partial credit for incomplete elements could steal a championship away from a clean skater. In such cases, comparative opinions must be the rule. The 6.0 had that; the CoP manipulates it.

However, some Fans are happy and others not so. There is a third class of Fans who go to LIVE competitions and then go home befuddled. :) :mad: :confused:
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I dunno, Evan and all the other skaters trained for years in pursuit of their Olympic dreams.

I think every skater that goes out on the ice alone for four minutes knowing so many are watching and with so much on the line is brave enough for me.

Sometimes champions are measured by their competitors. The 2010 Men's field in Vancouver was considered the deepest in Olympic history.
Just winning a medal in Vancouver was quite a feat. To win Gold was pretty special. What the Silver medalist accomplished might feel bittersweet to his fans but was still very special and even remarkable.

Evan will be remembered for holding his nerve and beating not just a deep field but also a legendary skater named Plushenko.

"Poor Evan" :think:

I think Evan is pretty fortunate.

I agree, Hernando. As I understand it, the CoP tends to break down the elements of skating and mark them one by one, rather than looking so much at the overall effect the way 6.0 judging tended to do. So when all the elements added up, the sum of Evan's elements was just a hair greater than the sum of Plushy's, due partly to Plushy's less meticulous adherence to certain CoP standards. So Evan won. It isn't an insult to skating but just the way the scoring was structured.

What always bothers me about the criticism of Evan in this competition is that it tends to fault him personally, as if he did something bad by winning; as if he handed in something substandard. He did his best and pushed himself to the limit. Plushy also did his best and pushed himself to the limit. Neither man was sitting on the judges' panel. The judges quantified and made a ruling. Lysacek didn't hold them at gunpoint. Frank Carroll didn't send someone with brass knuckles to the judges' panel. Maybe the judges themselves didn't even realize that they were giving the medal to Lysacek. They just gave a decimal grade and pushed buttons. As Irina Slutskaya said, "This is sport."

And for my money, Lysacek is a dandy Olympic champion. He's hardworking and has always tried to better himself. He's relatively modest, at least in public. He's loyal to his coach. He's incredibly articulate and self-possessed in front of a microphone--I'll never forget that splendid interview he gave to Bob Costas the day or so after his win, when Costas tried to push him into responding to Plushenko's gripes. And, skaters being the the intrepid, hungry athletes they are, the fact that Evan didn't have a quad won't "discourage" other skaters from doing quads. Does anyone seriously think that Patrick Chan or Daisuke Takahashi, or Oda whose ancestor was a Samurai, will "hold back" and play it safe from now on? Rubbish. Evan could no more pollute the future of skating than could Katarina Witt, whose main trait was her absolute coolness under pressure but who had very little innovative influence. She's still a double Olympic champion and a skating immortal, and good for her, too.

If you want a 2010 Olympic podium that pushed the envelope, look at the ladies' gold and silver medalists. Maybe the men will do this next time, in Sochi.
 
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Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
All of the ABOVE....

It's time to ditch that SP which doesn't really show much of the Technical aspects of skating. The replacement should be a Test of Elements without music . Whatever "artistry" there is in the SP is much clearer in the LP anyway.

I agree with you. There used to be three parts to a skating competition. I think there should be three again.

Part 1: Jumping bee/Test of Elements. Everyone is given a list of jumps or elements that they must do. So they do them, and they are scored. No music, and just a plain costume. Only a technical score is given--no credit for choreography, sensuality, etc. This can be livestreamed, but may be too dull to watch on tv.

Part II: A creative program with no triples or quads. Skaters must tell a story, and can use lyric music, and they must add as many creative moves as they can--hanging axels, charlottes, and all the things you rarely see any more. This would be highly subjective, but would be fun to watch. This would get only one score as well, but points would be deducted if anyone fell on their Charlotte, for example. They can do jumps up to a double axel, but the emphasis will be on artistry.

Part III: A long program like they are today, with both components.

This has a few strengths: a skater who falls several times or has bad technique like UR's, or can't do the harder jumps for whatever reason, will at least briefly, be at the back of the pack. Those who watch over the internet (as well as the skaters themselves) will be shown exactly what they did wrong on a large screen, so it is fair.

The short programs should show some more interesting moves and perhaps some better music choices. Even the announcers on Unisports were complaining about the slow, leaden music of the ladies' short programs this year. Also, the ladies all do the exact same jumps, often in roughly the same order. They need to mix it up.

The long program will remain the same.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
...
What always bothers me about the criticism of Evan in this competition is that it tends to fault him personally, as if he did something bad by winning; as if he handed in something substandard. He did his best and pushed himself to the limit. Plushy also did his best and pushed himself to the limit. Neither man was sitting on the judges' panel. The judges quantified and made a ruling. Lysacek didn't hold them at gunpoint. Frank Carroll didn't send someone with brass knuckles to the judges' panel. Maybe the judges themselves didn't even realize that they were giving the medal to Lysacek. They just gave a decimal grade and pushed buttons. As Irina Slutskaya said, "This is sport."

And for my money, Lysacek is a dandy Olympic champion. He's hardworking and has always tried to better himself. He's relatively modest, at least in public. He's loyal to his coach. He's incredibly articulate and self-possessed in front of a microphone--I'll never forget that splendid interview he gave to Bob Costas the day or so after his win, when Costas tried to push him into responding to Plushenko's gripes. And, skaters being the the intrepid, hungry athletes they are, the fact that Evan didn't have a quad won't "discourage" other skaters from doing quads. Does anyone seriously think that Patrick Chan or Daisuke Takahashi, or Oda whose ancestor was a Samurai, will "hold back" and play it safe from now on? Rubbish. Evan could no more pollute the future of skating than could Katarina Witt, whose main trait was her absolute coolness under pressure but who had very little innovative influence. She's still a double Olympic champion and a skating immortal, and good for her, too.

If you want a 2010 Olympic podium that pushed the envelope, look at the ladies' gold and silver medalists. Maybe the men will do this next time, in Sochi.

:rock:
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
It could all be summed up with the least expected overcame the most expected. That's the way it is in Skateville.

Good post, Olympia!!!

Poodlepal - Super suggestion!!! but the logistics would overwhelm it.
 
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