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Thread: CoP scoring of jumps from 2010 Olympics

  1. #31
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    If he only did a 3-3, he probably would've dropped out of the top five the rest of his performance was behind par. The quad-PCS bonus/reputation helped him a great deal at Vancouver.
    by the protocols you posted, it doesnt look like Evgeni had an average skate besides the quad, level 4 in spins, level 3 in footwork and nice axel and lutz I believe PCS inflation happened to more skaters rather than Plushy alone, not telling names :D

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    whole post
    Thanks for your analysis. I think you wrote in the other thread that COP made you a fan of figure skating (again) and I must admit I feel the same. I was watching figure skating pre-COP, but back then, I was just watching it casually in a sense. I have no background in skating myself, so I felt somehow excluded, not knowing how to evaluate skaters' skills and performances, except who landed jumps and who didn't. All I could say back then was whether I liked a particular performance or not, or who looked prettier / more exciting on ice - stating my 'preferences' only. COP and availability of protocols allow me to decipher the scores, encourage me to look at performances and programmes (components and their layout) more precisely and in detail and examine the strategies, give more clues about techniques (URs, wrong edge take off, change edges, etc), and above all give me another perspective and depth and breath of appreciation. I am now much more involved and spent more time watching, re-watching, collecting data, comparing performances, and so on. I have also discovered a joy of watching junior skaters too.

    I still have personal preferences and my favourite ones do not always win, but now I have means to understand why that is at least. And I am happier for that.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    by the protocols you posted, it doesnt look like Evgeni had an average skate besides the quad, level 4 in spins, level 3 in footwork and nice axel and lutz I believe PCS inflation happened to more skaters rather than Plushy alone, not telling names :D
    True. My point was more about how in Turin, the ten point lead had just as much to do with the rest of the field's disappointing performances as it does his own decline. The quad helped in Turin, but if you look at the scores, you see him doing very well without it anyway.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    what score would you have given Plushenko for that skate without a quad?
    That's a good question! Without a quad, probably he wouldn't get much lower than he had already had with a quad since the quad value was still not high enough to make this element standing out.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    the entire post#24
    Thank you so much for taking a lot of time to gather those valuable info and making detailed analysis! It has answered some of my concerns and made something clearer for me.

    However, I feel that that didn't actually address these questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    That is what doing a quad triple meant? Just goes to show doing a 4/3 meant nothing under COP at the 2010 Olympics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Was that fair to have a none-quad skater scored around 90, so close to a near perfect quad skater?
    First, Lysacek has given unfair PCS advantage of SP going into LP, which has resulted in having a quadless gold medalist. Second, after 2008 Worlds, CoP still hadn't given quad jumps enough value to encourage the risk taking. Some skaters have taken advantage of such a point-accumulating system. Avoided this prestigious element and used other elements to make up for the loss from avoiding it.

    Risk taking is one of the characters of any sports. Without risk taking, it won't be a sport. Some people mixed together Jeffrey Buttle's advantage-taking in 2006 Olympics with Lysacek's advantage-taking in 2010 Olympics. IMO, they were quite different advantage-taking. Buttle took the risk, made 4 revolutions in the air then fell. He was smart and brave. That was an applausable risk-taking athlete's behaviour. Lysacek avoided risk, skipped quad jump which he wasn't good at any more, instead made up the lost points from other elements he was good at or still able to do. He and Frank Carroll both were smart. But I couldn't say that he was brave. Such an Olympic gold medalist was, is, and will be remembered, but in a different way. Poor Evan!
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-16-2011 at 07:20 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    . He and Frank Carroll both were smart. But I couldn't say that he was brave. Such an Olympic gold medalist was, is, and will be remembered, but in a different way. Poor Evan!
    I dunno, Evan and all the other skaters trained for years in pursuit of their Olympic dreams.

    I think every skater that goes out on the ice alone for four minutes knowing so many are watching and with so much on the line is brave enough for me.

    Sometimes champions are measured by their competitors. The 2010 Men's field in Vancouver was considered the deepest in Olympic history.
    Just winning a medal in Vancouver was quite a feat. To win Gold was pretty special. What the Silver medalist accomplished might feel bittersweet to his fans but was still very special and even remarkable.

    Evan will be remembered for holding his nerve and beating not just a deep field but also a legendary skater named Plushenko.

    "Poor Evan"

    I think Evan is pretty fortunate.
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-16-2011 at 08:09 AM.

  6. #36
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    Like Buttle/Joubert, Plushenko/Lysacek was a close call.

    It blew away the theory that a skater needed a Quad, among other things; and that partial credit for incomplete elements could steal a championship away from a clean skater. In such cases, comparative opinions must be the rule. The 6.0 had that; the CoP manipulates it.

    However, some Fans are happy and others not so. There is a third class of Fans who go to LIVE competitions and then go home befuddled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    I dunno, Evan and all the other skaters trained for years in pursuit of their Olympic dreams.

    I think every skater that goes out on the ice alone for four minutes knowing so many are watching and with so much on the line is brave enough for me.

    Sometimes champions are measured by their competitors. The 2010 Men's field in Vancouver was considered the deepest in Olympic history.
    Just winning a medal in Vancouver was quite a feat. To win Gold was pretty special. What the Silver medalist accomplished might feel bittersweet to his fans but was still very special and even remarkable.

    Evan will be remembered for holding his nerve and beating not just a deep field but also a legendary skater named Plushenko.

    "Poor Evan"

    I think Evan is pretty fortunate.
    I agree, Hernando. As I understand it, the CoP tends to break down the elements of skating and mark them one by one, rather than looking so much at the overall effect the way 6.0 judging tended to do. So when all the elements added up, the sum of Evan's elements was just a hair greater than the sum of Plushy's, due partly to Plushy's less meticulous adherence to certain CoP standards. So Evan won. It isn't an insult to skating but just the way the scoring was structured.

    What always bothers me about the criticism of Evan in this competition is that it tends to fault him personally, as if he did something bad by winning; as if he handed in something substandard. He did his best and pushed himself to the limit. Plushy also did his best and pushed himself to the limit. Neither man was sitting on the judges' panel. The judges quantified and made a ruling. Lysacek didn't hold them at gunpoint. Frank Carroll didn't send someone with brass knuckles to the judges' panel. Maybe the judges themselves didn't even realize that they were giving the medal to Lysacek. They just gave a decimal grade and pushed buttons. As Irina Slutskaya said, "This is sport."

    And for my money, Lysacek is a dandy Olympic champion. He's hardworking and has always tried to better himself. He's relatively modest, at least in public. He's loyal to his coach. He's incredibly articulate and self-possessed in front of a microphone--I'll never forget that splendid interview he gave to Bob Costas the day or so after his win, when Costas tried to push him into responding to Plushenko's gripes. And, skaters being the the intrepid, hungry athletes they are, the fact that Evan didn't have a quad won't "discourage" other skaters from doing quads. Does anyone seriously think that Patrick Chan or Daisuke Takahashi, or Oda whose ancestor was a Samurai, will "hold back" and play it safe from now on? Rubbish. Evan could no more pollute the future of skating than could Katarina Witt, whose main trait was her absolute coolness under pressure but who had very little innovative influence. She's still a double Olympic champion and a skating immortal, and good for her, too.

    If you want a 2010 Olympic podium that pushed the envelope, look at the ladies' gold and silver medalists. Maybe the men will do this next time, in Sochi.
    Last edited by Olympia; 04-16-2011 at 03:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    All of the ABOVE....

    It's time to ditch that SP which doesn't really show much of the Technical aspects of skating. The replacement should be a Test of Elements without music . Whatever "artistry" there is in the SP is much clearer in the LP anyway.
    I agree with you. There used to be three parts to a skating competition. I think there should be three again.

    Part 1: Jumping bee/Test of Elements. Everyone is given a list of jumps or elements that they must do. So they do them, and they are scored. No music, and just a plain costume. Only a technical score is given--no credit for choreography, sensuality, etc. This can be livestreamed, but may be too dull to watch on tv.

    Part II: A creative program with no triples or quads. Skaters must tell a story, and can use lyric music, and they must add as many creative moves as they can--hanging axels, charlottes, and all the things you rarely see any more. This would be highly subjective, but would be fun to watch. This would get only one score as well, but points would be deducted if anyone fell on their Charlotte, for example. They can do jumps up to a double axel, but the emphasis will be on artistry.

    Part III: A long program like they are today, with both components.

    This has a few strengths: a skater who falls several times or has bad technique like UR's, or can't do the harder jumps for whatever reason, will at least briefly, be at the back of the pack. Those who watch over the internet (as well as the skaters themselves) will be shown exactly what they did wrong on a large screen, so it is fair.

    The short programs should show some more interesting moves and perhaps some better music choices. Even the announcers on Unisports were complaining about the slow, leaden music of the ladies' short programs this year. Also, the ladies all do the exact same jumps, often in roughly the same order. They need to mix it up.

    The long program will remain the same.

  9. #39
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    ...
    What always bothers me about the criticism of Evan in this competition is that it tends to fault him personally, as if he did something bad by winning; as if he handed in something substandard. He did his best and pushed himself to the limit. Plushy also did his best and pushed himself to the limit. Neither man was sitting on the judges' panel. The judges quantified and made a ruling. Lysacek didn't hold them at gunpoint. Frank Carroll didn't send someone with brass knuckles to the judges' panel. Maybe the judges themselves didn't even realize that they were giving the medal to Lysacek. They just gave a decimal grade and pushed buttons. As Irina Slutskaya said, "This is sport."

    And for my money, Lysacek is a dandy Olympic champion. He's hardworking and has always tried to better himself. He's relatively modest, at least in public. He's loyal to his coach. He's incredibly articulate and self-possessed in front of a microphone--I'll never forget that splendid interview he gave to Bob Costas the day or so after his win, when Costas tried to push him into responding to Plushenko's gripes. And, skaters being the the intrepid, hungry athletes they are, the fact that Evan didn't have a quad won't "discourage" other skaters from doing quads. Does anyone seriously think that Patrick Chan or Daisuke Takahashi, or Oda whose ancestor was a Samurai, will "hold back" and play it safe from now on? Rubbish. Evan could no more pollute the future of skating than could Katarina Witt, whose main trait was her absolute coolness under pressure but who had very little innovative influence. She's still a double Olympic champion and a skating immortal, and good for her, too.

    If you want a 2010 Olympic podium that pushed the envelope, look at the ladies' gold and silver medalists. Maybe the men will do this next time, in Sochi.
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 04-16-2011 at 11:05 AM.

  10. #40
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    It could all be summed up with the least expected overcame the most expected. That's the way it is in Skateville.

    Good post, Olympia!!!

    Poodlepal - Super suggestion!!! but the logistics would overwhelm it.

  11. #41
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    What always bothers me about the criticism of Evan in this competition is that it tends to fault him personally, as if he did something bad by winning; as if he handed in something substandard. He did his best and pushed himself to the limit.
    Except not. Pushing himself to the limit would have meant going for the Quad and trying to replicate something on the level of his 2007 Nationals performance. Evan did not do his best at all. He skated a safe and robotic program and hoped for Plushenko to make enough mistakes in order to win. It actually doesn't bother me that Evan didn't do the Quad; what's bothersome is his total lack of respect for the artistic side of the sport. He didn't even attempt to put anything personal into the program or to have any kind of viewpoint or creativity or give an actual PERFORMANCE.

    The judges should be blamed for part of that, though. He never should have been receiving those kind of PCS marks. Because of poor judging, a circumstance arose where he WAS able to focus on just skating a clean, safe by-the-numbers program and receive big marks for it. His ridiculous "World Champion" bonus pulled extra +GOE and PCS that were not deserved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Like Buttle/Joubert, Plushenko/Lysacek was a close call.
    A close call for who should have won the Bronze medal, I suppose.

  12. #42
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    ^ I disagree with that criticism. If a person lacks creativity and artistic flair you can't blame him for not giving a creative and artistic performance. (Did you see Evan on Dancing with he Stars?) Like Katarina Witt in 1988, Evan did what he could. On the tech side, it would have been nice if Evan had a reliable quad. But he didn't. He tried one at U.S. Nationals just to be sure.

    He gave it his best shot. He skated with intensity. He tried not to fall down, and he didn't. He skated to the music up to his capacity to do so. He worked on his stamina so that he could back-load his jumps. The audience, by and large, liked his effort. I thought he brought everything he had to the table. It was up to the others guys to beat him. They didn't.

  13. #43
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I disagree with that criticism. If a person lacks creativity and artistic flair you can't blame him for not giving a creative and artistic performance.
    That's like saying "if an accountant lacks skill with numbers, you can't blame them for not doing your taxes correctly."

    Those qualities are supposed to be JUDGED in figure skating. Evan was not properly judged for his program. The choreography and interpretation was nowhere near that of a few other competitors and yet his scores did not reflect that. If he had skated with tons of passion and attack that would be a different story, but he didn't even do that. Which is why I disagree with this part as well:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Like Katarina Witt in 1988, Evan did what he could. He gave it his best shot. He skated with intensity. He tried not to fall down, and he didn't. He skated to the music up to his capacity to do so.
    What intensity? Where was it? I did not see it. I saw very cautious skating. I do not at all believe he skated to the music up to his artistic capacity. Look at the emotion he put into his 2006 Olympic LP. That quality was sorely lacking from his 2010 Olympic LP.

    I love you MM, but this comparison you're making to Katarina Witt is absurd. Katarina's program was a beguiling performance piece with a coquettish quality that was unmatched in figure skating history up to that point in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It was up to the others guys to beat him. They didn't.
    Oh, but they did. The judges just didn't score it as such. Do you honestly believe Evan would have pulled those scores if he didn't have his track record? He would have been scored exactly as Johnny Weir was if politics weren't on his side.

    BTW, I believe Katarina Witt deserved to win SILVER at both of her Olympics.

  14. #44
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I still think one can win a championship if his partial credits are valid over a clean skated rival whose content was excellent. that's stretching the concept of you score on what is seen. It literally makes errors ok in a championship. Partial Credit did not exist legally in the 6.0 system. Tech was judged on completing the elements Either one could display his Jumps in a defined manner or suffer the consequences. That's sport.

    It also makes a folly of perceived artistry. One could skate sloppily and not be judged faulty in the Performance. You figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    First, Lysacek has given unfair PCS advantage of SP going into LP, which has resulted in having a quadless gold medalist. Second, after 2008 Worlds, CoP still hadn't given quad jumps enough value to encourage the risk taking. Some skaters have taken advantage of such a point-accumulating system. Avoided this prestigious element and used other elements to make up for the loss from avoiding it.

    Risk taking is one of the characters of any sports. Without risk taking, it won't be a sport. Some people mixed together Jeffrey Buttle's advantage-taking in 2006 Olympics with Lysacek's advantage-taking in 2010 Olympics. IMO, they were quite different advantage-taking. Buttle took the risk, made 4 revolutions in the air then fell. He was smart and brave. That was an applausable risk-taking athlete's behaviour. Lysacek avoided risk, skipped quad jump which he wasn't good at any more, instead made up the lost points from other elements he was good at or still able to do. He and Frank Carroll both were smart. But I couldn't say that he was brave. Such an Olympic gold medalist was, is, and will be remembered, but in a different way. Poor Evan!
    1. I disagree. If you believe Lysacek was given an unfair PCS advantage, that's fine. I think Plushenko was given an unfair PCS advantage. And around and around we go.

    2. I do agree that the sport should encourage risk taking. But why is "risk taking" only accorded to the quad? Level four footwork, which is so difficult that only three or four men can do it consistently (Chan, Takahashi, Fernandez) is worth less than a triple toe, for example. Hell, they even took out one footwork sequence (in the short) and made the second one in the LP an un-leveled one, so that actual content is not judged as part of technical difficulty. Remember Chan's performance at Nationals? His final jump (a 2A) was call more difficult than his final footwork sequence. Which, to you, is more representative of risk?

    3. And beyond that, how do we define risk? For example, Chan's clearly more comfortable on the quad than he's on the 3A. For him, it would be a bigger risk to include two 3As, not two quads.

    3. Buttle won bronze. Lysacek won gold. People questioned a system that would allow a skater to garner a significant amount of points for the fallen quad. And we're seeing people ask those same questions today.

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