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Thread: CoP scoring of jumps from 2010 Olympics

  1. #46
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    That's like saying "if an accountant lacks skill with numbers, you can't blame them for not doing your taxes correctly."
    Well, you could say that he is a an incompetent boobie. But still he might have tried his best. I think Lysacek tried his best.

    Katarina's program was a beguiling performance piece with a coquettish quality that was unmatched in figure skating history up to that point in time.
    That sentence is so effectively written that I have no choice but to succumb. (To me, though, it seemed like she used coquetry to mask other deficiencies. She "did what she could" and left it up to the other skaters to beat her if they were able.)

  2. #47
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    Also, I'm pretty sure Blades thinks Ito should have beaten Witt in the LP (and SP...?).

  3. #48
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    And I think Michelle should have won in 1998. Alas, we don't get do-overs. But we do get to enjoy the skaters we love, whether the judges marked them to our satisfaction or not. Think of it as being a Chicago Cubs fan. (I think it's the Cubs who still haven't won a World Series. Didn't the White Sox win a few years ago? If they're not figure skaters, I don't tend to recall these things.) I know it's not an exact parallel because baseball isn't a judged sport. But sometimes you love people who don't show up in the record books the way you'd like. You still love them. Example: I will watch Lyra Angelica with delight until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil, and I might never watch Tara's program again...what was it called?--even though it won the gold and supposedly showed "unbridled joy." I'm glad there are people who love her work; every skater deserves devotees. But I'm with Lyra Angelica.

    So someone else won the 2010 Men's Gold instead of Plushenko or Takahashi. Did Lysacek really have the best skate of the week? We have argued this for a year. There's one thing I know: we will never get to see the 2010 Men's Competition re-skated. We can keep debating, because it's part of what fans do, and it's extremely enjoyable and enlightening, but until one of you can find the crank in the globe that we turn in reverse, we won't undo what happened that night. Frankly, if I find the crank, I'll go back to some other event, such as the beginning of World War I, or Sept. 10, 2001. I won't waste it on getting Plushenko those two extra points, and I'm pretty sure none of the rest of you would either.
    Last edited by Olympia; 04-16-2011 at 09:45 PM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    He's incredibly articulate and self-possessed in front of a microphone--I'll never forget that splendid interview he gave to Bob Costas the day or so after his win, when Costas tried to push him into responding to Plushenko's gripes.
    Surely you don't think that the questions Bob Costas asked to Lysacek were the questions suddenly popped up on air and never ever have been rehearsed before, do you? Do you think that Lysacek didn't have any pr persons from USFSA, USOC, or NBC to coach him for the proper answers?

    I think those answers were calculated, prepared, rehearsed, of course perfect answers under those kinds of circumstances. But they didn't mean much of anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Does anyone seriously think that Patrick Chan or Daisuke Takahashi, or Oda whose ancestor was a Samurai, will "hold back" and play it safe from now on?
    Seeing what Takahashi did at 2010 Olympics, everyone knows that he won't hold back. But if I say Chan and Oda won't, and make a long list of reasons. Will you believe that? It'll be everyone's guess. Since last season, the harder jumps have given higher values, no one will ever know the answer to your this question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Pushing himself to the limit would have meant going for the Quad and trying to replicate something on the level of his 2007 Nationals performance. Evan did not do his best at all. He skated a safe and robotic program and hoped for Plushenko to make enough mistakes in order to win.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    2. I do agree that the sport should encourage risk taking. But why is "risk taking" only accorded to the quad? Level four footwork, which is so difficult that only three or four men can do it consistently (Chan, Takahashi, Fernandez) is worth less than a triple toe, for example. Hell, they even took out one footwork sequence (in the short) and made the second one in the LP an un-leveled one, so that actual content is not judged as part of technical difficulty. Remember Chan's performance at Nationals? His final jump (a 2A) was call more difficult than his final footwork sequence. Which, to you, is more representative of risk?

    3. And beyond that, how do we define risk? For example, Chan's clearly more comfortable on the quad than he's on the 3A. For him, it would be a bigger risk to include two 3As, not two quads.
    Is level 4 footwork representing high athleticism? No. It's representing high skating skills. That's why it doesn't belong to risk-taking of a sport.

    The risk-taking I refered to was an absolute concept of "pushing to the human limit". Not the risk that someone takes to perform in order to get the safest result. These are totally two different things.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-16-2011 at 11:07 PM.

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    If I find the crank, I'll never stop!

    But if we can't endlessly rehash arguments that won't change the outcome (Kirk vs Spock! Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings, sweet vs sour!) on the internets, what else as we supposed to do :D!!!

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    Is level 4 footwork representing high athletism? No. It's representing high skating skills. That's why it doesn't belong to risk-taking of a sport.

    The risk-taking I refered to was an absolute concept of "pushing to the human limit". Not the risk that someone takes to perform in order to get the safest result. These are totally two different things.
    Is this generally agreed upon? That high skating skills in and of themselves don't represent high athleticism?

    ETA: You didn't answer my question, about the quad vs the 3A, and what represents real risk (use Lambiel as an example, if you'd rather).
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 04-16-2011 at 10:37 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    If I find the crank, I'll never stop!

    But if we can't endlessly rehash arguments that won't change the outcome (Kirk vs Spock! Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings, sweet vs sour!) on the internets, what else as we supposed to do :D!!!
    Definitely, Pogue!

    (And I still think Cary Grant should have won the Oscar for None But the Lonely Heart...and instead I think they gave it to Bing Crosby for portraying a singing priest in Going My Way. Wuzrobbed!)

  8. #53
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Evan Lysacek: Boy Next Door or Sinister Villain... well he does like to slick his hair back and wear black... *yawn* so glad he's out of this business, he deserves better. :sheesh:

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Is this generally agreed upon? That high skating skills in and of themselves don't represent high athleticism?
    I don't know if this is generally agreed upon. In my mind, I think they are in two different categories. Do you think drawing belongs to athleticism? It doesn't involve the precise move of feet but it does to the hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    ETA: You didn't answer my question, about the quad vs the 3A, and what represents real risk (use Lambiel as an example, if you'd rather).
    It doesn't matter whether we talk about Chan or Lambiel. 3A was conquered long before quad jumps. That means that quad jump is the next higher level of the human limit. It doesn't matter whether some skaters could manage quad better than 3A or 2A. Quad is still the limit for all skaters.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-16-2011 at 11:12 PM.

  10. #55
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    Bluebonnet, I think skating requires athleticism - speed skating, figure skating, roller skating, etc. Therefore skating skills would require athleticism. I'm genuinely floored you think drawing is an appropriate analogy. I definitely disagree with your general attitude though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Definitely, Pogue!

    (And I still think Cary Grant should have won the Oscar for None But the Lonely Heart...and instead I think they gave it to Bing Crosby for portraying a singing priest in Going My Way. Wuzrobbed!)
    Fred MacMurray in Double Indemnity all the way.

    Grant should've won for The Awful Truth.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Bluebonnet, I think skating requires athleticism - speed skating, figure skating, roller skating, etc. Therefore skating skills would require athleticism. I'm genuinely floored you think drawing is an appropriate analogy. I definitely disagree with your general attitude though.
    I know hands movement and feet movement are different. Feet movement cannot be separated from whole body movement. I don't want you to think that I'm sophisticating. The truth is that I actually find a lot of your questions are hard to answer and I've never thought about.

    However, I still don't think level 4 footwork could be put on the level of quad jumps in order to measure a skater's athleticism, nor in the same concept of risk-taking.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-17-2011 at 12:27 AM.

  12. #57
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    for a skater like Bradley who can hit quads (most days) in his sleep, but would trip all over level four footwork I think the footwork would be a bigger risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    for a skater like Bradley who can hit quads (most days) in his sleep, but would trip all over level four footwork I think the footwork would be a bigger risk.
    I'd say Bradley is more sporty than a good skater. He is a brave athlete.

  14. #59
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Definition of an Athlete: a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill.

    Level 4 footwork seems to fit squarely under physical agility.

    Definition of Athletic:
    1. physically active and strong; good at athletics or sports: an athletic child.
    2. of, like, or befitting an athlete.
    3. of or pertaining to athletes; involving the use of physical skills or capabilities, as strength, agility, or stamina: athletic sports; athletic training.
    4. for athletics: an athletic field.

    I see nothing about the meaning of "athletic" that would exclude Level 4 footwork.

  15. #60
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ I disagree with that criticism. If a person lacks creativity and artistic flair you can't blame him for not giving a creative and artistic performance. (Did you see Evan on Dancing with he Stars?)
    Yes but in DwS he didnt skate, did he? I havent seen any of Dance with Stars, so all I want to comment is that my first encounter with Lysacek live was in GS 2010 and I had no intention not to like his skate. The ambiance was really cheerful and Vancouver was so past by then. But my impression as objective as it can be is that he skates well executed or not programs even in shows with the minimum of his own personal touch in them. The opening act of Golden SKates when rythm was important was not good and if you watch the rest skaters he loses in comparison and his MJ program , I dont know..you watch and tell me He also skated his Oly program, I really think GS was a good opportunity not to skate the program like he was going to be marked for it, level 4 spins and footwork were not required. I m not all audience, so I think it is indicative of the reception he got, and I dont think it has to do with European audience that didnt sync with him cause I saw Weir and Sasha this weekend and they rocked they arena. I think you either have it or not and in shows it is more obvious. My post has nothing to do with the result in Olympics, it sounds very old news now

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